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This list of touchscreen anomalies is derived from the Election Incident Reporting System, a division of (Correction: "Actually, EIRS was a project developed by V V and supported by a coalition of groups, the Election Protection Coalition. The reports collected, as well as a description of the methodology used to collect them, are available to researchers. They were collected by trained hotline operators and fed into a specially designed system." - thank you, AlanF.)

This is just a sample of the thousands of "anomalies" that were reported to the EIRS during the 2004 election. This batch consists mostly of "vote flipping" in Florida.

Still don't think there is a problem? You need to give Mark Crispin Miller a listen, and read "What Went Wrong in Ohio"... pronto.


Columbus, Broward Co County, Florida

Two unrelated people (taxi driver & store clerk) told our volunteer they had voted on touch screens this week and screen showed they had voted for Bush when they know they voted for Kerry -- they got someone to change it before their vote was filed.


Broward County, Florida

Voted early at main library in Broward County. Using electronic machine voted for Kerry and at review screen vote came up for Bush


Roaker Center, Broward County, Florida

Voter and daughter voted using machine - when summary popped up it showed a diff. outcome - Martinez instead of Castor. This also happened for daughter - same problem. Update from cos - She used machine 2nd from right against the back wall, daughter used machine 3rd from right. In both cases, Castor was highlighted and selected, but when reached summary screen, it said Martinez. When they reported problem, poll worked laughed, did not seem interested in doing anything about it.


2501 NE 30th street United Church of Christ, Ft Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida

Voting machine problem - pushed Kerry got Bush - pushed Castor got Martinez - all others - pushed Parrish got Zella - accused of not being able to read -intimidation


Broward County, Florida

Machines switching are switching vote Kerry to Bush -- this happens prior to confirmation screen. - other voters complaining about the same thing


Lauderdale by the Sea, Broward County, Florida

Voter hit Kerry button and check mark appeared next to Bush. Voter contacted poll worker to correct problem but the same thing happened she voted the rest of the ballot. She had help and was able to fix ballot before she left, but was concerned.


Broward County, Florida

Candidate deleted when hit button, at review screen, no vote for president, 5 voters so far reported this don't know which machines.


Tamarac, Broward County, Florida

The vote selected on the machine was not the choice the voter wanted. When asked to confirm the candidate that came up was not the candidate selected.


Veteran's Park, Broward County, Florida

One machine; told by Kerry monitor that when people voting for Kerry push "summarize". Another candidate's name shows up. Poll workers said, "Didn't push hard enough." Said tech repairman has been dispatched.


Broward County, Florida

Voter needed help with machine when poll worker came over, the review screen was up but had no ballots cast (no candidates issues checked). The poll worker hit the red vote button and voted the voter's blank ballot.


Lauderhill, Broward County, Florida

Voted at Veteran's Park. When pushed screen a selection was made that was not wanted. Machine malfunction.


Broward County, Florida

Chose candidate of choice and machine chose a candidate in another section as well. Was able to fix it, but wanted to let us know.


Somerset Condominiums Clubhouse, 2845 Somerset Dr., Ft. Lauderdale, Brower County, Florida

Voter voted for Kerry; when she reviewed the ballot it showed that she voted for Bush. Poll worker said that has been happening to many others.


Broward County, Florida

Voter found the summary screen showed a person whom she did not vote for. She corrected the problem.


3M Roarke Hall, Sunrise, Broward County, Florida

Voted for "Castor" on electronic screen, but "Martinez" came up on summary screen. Told poll worker, but is worried that machine is not working.


Daniels, Dania, Broward County, Florida

At review screen, selection changed from Kerry to Bush "before my eyes" as voter pushed red button just before. Voter filed complaint with Kerry lawyer in polling place and told poll worker of problem, who said, "nothing could be done."


8909 Fire Station, Miramar, Broward County, Florida

Voter voted- confirmation screen came up with different results than what he had selected. Voter is concerned that the same problem is happening with other voters who don't check the confirmation screen.


69 R, Ft. Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida

Voter pressed "Kerry" on machine, but another name was indicated on the summary page. Voter was able to review & change the vote satisfactorily.


Deerfield Beach Housing Authority, Deerfield Beach, Broward County, Florida

Upon reviewing her ballot before casting her vote, the voter noticed that "Bush/Cheney" appeared even though she had chosen "Kerry/Edwards".


Miramar Civic Center, 6290 SW 38th St, Miramar, Broward County, Florida

Voter says touch-screen machine was touched for his choice for presidential candidate, but it registered a vote for the other candidate.


Lakes of DelRay Club house 15055 Ashland Blvd, DelRay Beach, Palm Beach County, Florida

Four out of 6 machines down. 100 people in line and people are leaving.


3720 Oakland Pk Blvd, Lauderdale Lakes, Broward County, Florida

Unknown name came up on review screen, Walter F. Browne - after Kerry selected. Asked for help from election's worker, who suggested he do it over. He retried, got same result, and finalized vote without accurate screen.


Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida

I've been a pollworker in Broward County, Florida for a number of years and have worked in many elections. As a citizen, and someone with a B.S. in Computer Science, I've been greatly concerned about the accuracy of electronic voting machines. Having worked with computers for decades in my own business, I know how vulnerable they are to both incompetence and tampering. So I always do everything I can to cross check and verify the numbers in my precinct, and the numbers in this election do not add up. 553 people voted on the machines in Precinct 11R, but the machines only registered 536 votes cast...


Broward County, Florida

We staffed the emergency hotline for the Kerry Campaign Headquarters in Broward County from late October through the election. All of us were devastated by the margin of Bush's win in Florida, particularly since polls predicted the race would be extremely close. Many of the calls to our hotline were from voters who had pressed the "Kerry" button on their electronic voting screen, only to have "Bush" light up as the candidate they had chosen. In some cases, this would happen repeatedly until about the 5th or 6th time the voter pressed "Kerry" and eventually his name would light up. In other cases, the voters pushed "Kerry" but were later asked to confirm their "Bush" vote.


Pompano Beach, Broward County, Florida

Voted in Lauderdale by the Sea, Florida, (Broward County) and the I-Voting machine would not let me vote for John Kerry. Every time I touched the Kerry box, Bush's box would check off. After several failed attempts at trying to vote for Kerr, I called over a poll worker and demonstrated what was happening. Then a technician was called in and he had to re-calibrate the machine. The technician said this had happened several times already even though voting had only started 90 minutes prior.


Coral Springs, Broward County, Florida

Caller learned from relatives in Coral Springs, FL (Broward) that electronic machines malfunctioned when voter tried to vote for Kerry - machine responds with "Bush". She does not believe the voters reported the problem. She reported it to Kerry campaign. They said they were aware of the problem, and that it had been going on all day.


Coral Gables, Broward County, Florida

Volunteer received 75 calls from Broward that when they voted for Kerry the light for Bush lit up on the election machines


Coral Spring Elementary on 110th Ave., Broward County, Florida

Voting machine is not registering the correct candidate the voter chose i.e. voted for one candidate but the other candidate appeared (five times)


Veterans Park, 7600 NW 50th St, Lauderhill FL 33351, Broward County, Florida

ACT poll observer called in to report that multiple voters (at least 5 so far) had reported their vote for president was missing on the review screen. Voters were able to go back and correct problem if they noticed it. Observers are advising voters to check for this problem on their review screen.


Marriott Resort Hotel, 11775 Heron Bay Blvd, Coral Springs, Broward County, Florida

Touchscreen calibration problem: Tried to vote for Kerry multiple times, kept getting candidate below Kerry. Asked poll worker for assistance, got no help. Finally was able to vote for Kerry by touching towards the Bush button. 3rd or 4th machine from the right.


Marriott Resort Hotel, 11775 Heron Bay Blvd, Coral Springs, Broward County, Florida

Tried repeatedly to vote for Kerry, got candidate underneath. Was able to vote for Kerry by touching more toward the Bush button. Machine against back wall, somewhere around the 4th or 5th from the right (See also case #41979)


Rockdale elem. school, Ft. Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida

Voter pushed button for choice, machine indicated other candidate at the bottom of the screen, tried again, indicated again that he voted for wrong candidate, third time his selection was correctly noted.


Sunrise, Broward County, Florida

Machine changed candidate he was voting for (3rd machine from right, precinct 17M) Kerry highlighted, on review saw Brown(?) for president. Asked poll worker for help and poll worker had him start over. Voted successfully 2nd time.


Hollywood Hills Alliance Church, Hollywood Hills, Broward County, Florida

Voted for Kerry but machine showed Bush.


St. James Baptist Missionary Church 500 N.W. 21st Ave., Broward County, Florida

After voter voted for Kerry, and when they tried to move to the next screen, if heel of hand brushed against screen, which was apparently happening, vote switched to Nader and got cast for Nader. Kerry Poll Watcher said some had been caught and corrected, but who knows about all. Poll worker not helpful to EP mobile attorney. Was Votronic machine


Deerfield Housing Authority, Broward County, Florida

Upon reviewing his vote, voter noticed wrong candidate choice appeared.


Oriole Gardens Clubhouse, 7400 NW 5th Ct., Margate, Broward County, Florida

She had to select presidential choice 2x before correct choice was reflected. Got help from poll worker; successfully voted. Voted Bush, Kerry got highlighted.


Deerfield Beach Housing Authority, Broward County, Florida

Voter noticed that the wrong choices appeared as she reviewed her selection.


Towngate, Broward County, Florida

Voted for a candidate but other name came up several times. In another instance pressed the Democrat & the Republican came up.

Originally posted to reprehensor on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 07:53 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Oh but election fraud is just tin foil hat stuff. (179+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Paolo, racerx, Sidhe, sj, SWicklund, Sean Robertson, Chicago Jason, elizsan, Dr Van Nostrand, ferg, SarahLee, Hornito, Raybin, Gooserock, saraswati, Maryscott OConnor, Shockwave, Del C, Sherri in TX, genethefiend, maddercow, dji, Pompatus, x, d3n4l1, Bexley Lane, frisco, dash888, marjo, Matilda, Creosote, kissfan, dpc, DJ Adequate, km4, opinionated, Xeno of Elia, joynow, koz, conchita, matthewc, macdust, SamSinister, guyute16, Diggla, ScantronPresident, biscobosco, journey man, buckhorn okie, samddobermann, murphsurf, Fe, juergendopp, dchill, ryder92111, lilnubber, librarianman, bustacap, jted, UniC, CocoaLove, Alohaleezy, bato, Moody Loner, lanikai, emmasnacker, DeadB0y, MTgirl, gmb, GrainofSand, Red State Refugee, NYFM, applegal, tabbycat in tenn, BrooklynVoice, papercut, TheJohnny, bwintx, OrangeClouds115, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, ScienceMom, akskye, DrewDown, Hari Rothstein, thereisnospoon, We hold these truths, greeseyparrot, Thirsty, SteveK, nehark, mediaprisoner, bloomer 101, kennedy joss, Mr Bula, el dorado gal, Elise, Five of Diamonds, baccaruda, mjd in florida, corvo, KnotIookin, Luetta, chicoTowner, terrypinder, Hugo Estrada, drewfromct, Brooke In Seattle, dj angst, Ranting Roland, anonymousredvest18, trinityfly, reflectionsv37, eru, jfadden, mojo workin, marathon, IL dac, eyama, Karmafish, ladybug53, Joy Busey, sunbro, paxpdx, rolandzebub, deep, JenThinks, nhwriter, Thursday Next, pacotrey, sodalis, Shaking the Tree, willers, psyched, Astoria Chris, viscerality, missouri reader, drag0n, skywriter, motherlowman, zot23, dannyinla, trashablanca, Sanuk, Nightprowlkitty, Kingsmeg, Provgressive, SeattleChris, Dvalkure, buhdydharma, theyrereal, deha, Magnifico, mango, greenearth, blueoasis, MJ via Chicago, StrayCat, Lashe, imabluemerkin, justalittlebitcrazy, FireCrow, cobalt blue, NearlyNormal, Wbythebay, Demena, Adistius, dirtfarmer, middleagedhousewife, lazybum, ilyana, Jiminy Cricket, Timothy J, thecoolmacdude, means are the ends, RantNRaven, DrClayForrester, AmericanRiverCanyon, axle w ryn, turquoise



    •  You libruls are sore loosers... (51+ / 0-)

      ... blah blah blah ...

      No mater who's in power this stuff is very serious. Good post. Lets keep this evidence in everyone's faces, Bush' precidency was illegitimate and illegal. We rolled over and allowed him to take that oath twice. Cut your cable and back away from the DVDs, we need to wake up and expose these bastards (to your ignorant neighbors, mostly. Here on DailyKos the choir was already passed around the collection plate.)

      •  Yeah, and dontcha know... (40+ / 0-)

        that if this had somehow been reversed, if the shoe was on the other foot, they'd be HOWLING night and day!

        What is up with us, that we are so dismissive of such a central part of the very foundation of Democracy As We Know It?

        If a blogger blogs, and nothing changes, did that blogger actually make a blog?

        ---my Dad

        by Nonie3234 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:07:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's because of the institutionalized cowardice (85+ / 0-)

          at the top of the Dem party. Repubs are encouraged to fight for anything, no matter how unpopular or wrong. Dems are discouraged from fighting for what is popular and just. Voting integrity. Iraq Lies. Impeachment. Etc. "Shhhhh! You don't want to rally the Bush base..."

          Fuck that. I can't think of anything more depressing for the Dem base than to be told to shut up about the destruction of our democracy, to shut up about the President's proven lies that started a war.

          At least in 2006, there will be more voter angst and anger, and more eyes watching the voting equipment, compared to 2004. In 2004, I didn't know jack shit about black box voting until after the election. I know about it now. I wasn't an activist in 2004. I am now.

          Bush lied to start a war. Now he wants absolute power as the "War President." We're in deep shit.

          by bejammin075 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:20:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Lots of us agree with this sentiment (8+ / 0-)

            "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

            by NearlyNormal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:27:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Dems look like the Washington Generals (13+ / 0-)

            Our leaders apparently get paid to let the Globetrotters wipe the floor with them.

            Or so it would seem.

            The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits. - Albert Einstein

            by racerx on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:14:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It happened in my Pinellas County, Fl too! (8+ / 0-)

            I campaigned for Senator Kerry. The 1st time that I became involved in a political election. (I had been an independent voter beforehand). Out of the 100's of voters that I called, all were voting and for Kerry. Military voters and many people pissed with Bush and Iraq were switching their vote to Kerry. Gore won my county in 2000 and NO WAY did Bush honestly win it in 2004.  I was a greeter at a suburban church in Clearwater, the evangelical Bush greeter was all upset at the end of the day because she realized that more people were voting for Kerry. (that is another story, she was running out into the parking lot, like she thought she would change voters mind, I obviously came home with a pounding, stress headache) This church had 8 voting machines and never a line.  Three miles away, downtown Safety Harbor, a heavily democratic base, had only a few machines and they were not working properly and people were waiting hours out in the sun! Election day was a very dehydrating day in Florida, hot and muggy.  I was lucky to have some big trees to stand under and had plenty of water. My headache could have been a combination of the evangelical nut and dehydration. I am Catholic, by the way!

            •  Pinellas! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thereisnospoon, mjd in florida

              Me too! St. Pete here, in the Hiz-ouse!

              If a blogger blogs, and nothing changes, did that blogger actually make a blog?

              ---my Dad

              by Nonie3234 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:29:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  worked in Pinellas County on election day (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mjd in florida, Dvalkure

              people voted for Kerry, and they were urging their neighbors to vote for Kerry. Did you see instances of machine malfunction? or are you suggesting the count didn't agree with the actual vote (that's what I wondered about). I'm not optimistic about 2006, however. Maybe more optimistic now that Dean is talking about it.

              hark! hark! the Clark!!

              by Errol on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:23:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Dear Errol, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                The problems with the few machines downtown Safety Harbor mal-functioning during the day might make a good investigation. (I heard people were waiting out in the sun for 3 hours to vote) That area should have at least 10-12 machines and the voting site that I was at only needed about 3. (flip-flop)

            •  70,000 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mjd in florida

              You had 70,000 extra people turn out in Pinellas from '00-'04

              Kerry got 25,000 more votes than Gore.

              How is this evidence of election fraud?

              •  Many people that I spoke with were switching (3+ / 0-)

                from Bush to Kerry, in calls and my neighbors and friends. Many people were voting for Kerry that didn't vote in the Gore-Bush election.  The numbers just did not add up properly and the voter suppression, less machines, in key areas was obvious.  No proof but a serious gut-feeling about the count. We need paper-accountable ballots!

              •  How Pinellas helped FLORIDA AVERT '04 Recount (5+ / 0-)

                If you want insight into the Presidential and Castor-Martinez accumulation of votes in the state, look at the post-election maneuvers on the slots machine constitutional amendment in the Nov '04 election. (It's a diary I posted last year.)

                The Pinellas elections department flipped a 17,000 vote defeat in the county to a 17,000 vote approval (a 34,000 vote difference), and maintained the clerical paper-and-pencil error, even after informed of it by a clerk, during all the weeks that followed. The SoS, Glenda Hood, made sure to certify the erroneous results, and said it was illegal after the deadline to correct them. This got a fair amount of newspaper coverage in Florida. [Interestingly, Glenda Hood and her #1 subordinate both abruptly resigned about 1 week before the Nov. 2005 elections.]

                By not correcting Pinellas and not allowing the contest of the obvious machine error in the Broward County slots vote, the state was able to keep the close vote count for the constitutional amendment a hair above the 0.5% threshhold of the margin of difference that would have triggered a recount of all ballots statewide.

                If both the Broward vote count was invalidated and the Pinellas true vote count was corrected on the Secretary of State's record, then the ballot counting would have had to be examined.

                Florida officials made sure that would not happen.

                •  Prove Win, Non-Evidentiary Equip? Restore Ballots (0+ / 0-)

                  From Altercation by Eric Alterman

                  The Dog Whisperer — The New York Times Book Review offered a capsule review of a new book by TV dog trainer Cesar Millan (host of the show Dog Whisperer):

                  Millan likes to talk about the importance of being a pack leader and projecting what he calls "calm-assertive" energy around your dog. The thing to avoid, he writes, is being "angry-aggressive," a trait he identifies in Bill O'Reilly of Fox News. This type of person "would not make a good pack leader," Millan writes, "because the other dogs would perceive him as unstable." (Our presidents are often unable to control their dogs, Millan said in a recent lecture. He added, "We are the only species that follows unstable pack leaders.")

                  Who does "Calm-assertive" sound like to you?

                  Why, of course, Al Gore and John Kerry.

                  Who does "Angry-aggressive" sound like to you?

                  Thelma Bush and the Louise GOP
                  and their apocalyptic fundamentalists
                  (Mutually Assured Destruction)
                  dragging us all down with them
                  with Global Warming.


                  On purpose, secrecy is built into these machines to hide the truth of the ballots by preventing the counting of all ballots on election night or ever.

                  You need to hand count Paper Ballots on election night to have a provable Democracy. When evidence is removed with any of these machines, you have to put evidence back in the election. A Parallel election, or Signed Ballots would put evidence, Paper Ballots, back into the process.

                  Odd isn't it...Republicans must create Non-Evidentiary systems to win elections with no proof. Democrats are stuck with trying to figure out ways to restore Evidence to Prove a enough time to actually take office. Years later, does no good. Or, does it? Count the Ohio Ballots Now, before Hurricane Season to save lives. Or, didn't Gore actually win, under all conditions? The remorseful Sandra Day O'Conner should back Gore up on this.

                  We live in a post Katrina world now. So, Bush Step Down.

                  I want Gore and Kerry as leaders to save more lives during the worsening climate for which Republicans are so responsible--deniers while exacerbaters. The Republicans talk of Armaggeddon to try to push blame onto GOD for the Republicans' stupid, tragic delay at problem solving (we are at 425 ppm CO2 and Methane past the Tipping Point). Times Up.


                  Before Hurricane Season

                  Ballots Count for Gore and Kerry. Bush Step Down.


                  Before 2006 Elections

                  In case you are stuck with Abramoff's Diebold and Ney's HAVA and so have worthless Non-evidentiary machines put in place by Republicans which you have to overcome with real evidence...


                  Plan B:  Parallel Elections & Signed Ballots
                  By Lynn Landes  1/18/05

                  Something's got to give.  Another election is just around the corner.  What's it going to be?  Another opportunity to document election "irregularities" and computer "glitches"?  Another chance to analyze mysterious exit polls?  Another exercise in frustration?  Another charade.  

                  Democrats will need a mighty good reason to go back to the polls.  Many believe that our elections are rigged.  And they have good reason.  Republicans own the voting machine companies that count 80% of the votes.  Congress and the courts are unlikely to change that.  And the Democratic leadership has hardly made it an issue.

                  So, let's do something different.  We'll go to Plan B.  We'll organize our own "Parallel Elections".  
                  A Parallel Election would be held in tandem with the official election.  It could be organized on a precinct, county, or statewide basis.  And anyone could do it.  It's simple.  On Election Day, "parallel election pollworkers" (PEPs) would position themselves outside the polls.  They would provide voters with "parallel ballots" to mark and a ballot box in which to cast them.  At the end of the day, PEPs would compare their tallies with the official election returns.  If the tallies don't match, the election can be challenged.

                  But, the really big deal is this... voters would be asked to print their names and addresses and sign their ballots.  What's the point?   To provide proof.  Candidates need hard evidence in order to challenge election results.  A signed ballot would act as a voter's affidavit - as direct evidence of the voter's intent.  

                  Exit polls and audits provide circumstantial evidence, at best.  We need much more.
                  During the 2004 election, tens of thousands of voting rights activists worked the polls.  They documented tens of thousands of election irregularities.  But, all that documentation didn't provide any direct evidence of how people actually voted.  Even when recounts were conducted, as in Ohio, election officials managed to sabotage the process.

                  The original goal of the secret ballot was to minimize vote selling and voter intimidation. It seemed like a good idea at the time.  But, that time has passed.  The secret ballot has become the refuge of scoundrels and unscrupulous election officials.  It provides perfect cover for vote fraud and system failure.  

                  A signed ballot is not such a farfetched idea.  In the 1700's and 1800's, "There was no right to a secret ballot; having sworn in as a voter, the voter may have simply called out his choices to the election clerks who sit... behind the judge tallying the vote," writes University of Iowa professor Douglas W. Jones.  

                  In some parts of Switzerland, citizens still follow the ancient custom of electing their government by an open show of hands on the last Sunday morning of every April.

                  Think about it.  The U.S. Congress, state assemblies, and even town councils, all vote in public.  Why should our votes be kept secret?  What are we afraid of?  Are we afraid we'd lose our jobs if our employers knew how we voted?  That ship has sailed - quite literally.  Millions of jobs in America have already been outsourced to foreign countries.  It's only going to get worse if we can't boot these lunatics out of office.  Are we afraid that some voters will sell their votes?  Oh, you mean like our legislators already do?  Listen. I wouldn't make vote selling legal, but I wouldn't get my shorts in a twist over it, either.  Or, are we afraid to disappoint our friends and family?  It's more important not to disappoint yourself.

                  A Parallel Election serves three purposes.  First, it introduces authentic voting to American citizens.  Second, it asserts local control over the voting process.  And third, it provides a platform from which to seriously challenge election results.
                  So, what do you think?  Does a Parallel Election make sense?  Does it stand a chance?  Will people respond?  I certainly hope so, because otherwise we're left with some pretty dismal choices, all framed in a negative context.  I think this is a positive project that's worth a try.  I'm game.  If you're interested, send me an e-mail at  

                  Let's show our machine-made politicians that we will stand up and be counted.


                  THE DRILL -- 'PE' Pollworkers are to hand informational PE pamphlets to voters as they go into the polls, and then offer a PE ballot as the voters exit the polls.  At the end of the day, count the votes and compare it to the official count.  If the count is off, report it to the Board of Elections and issue a press release.

                    * Pick a precinct - it could be your own or a precinct that has experienced voting "irregularities" in past elections
                    * Determine the precinct boundaries if you're going to do a pre-Election Day pamphlet drop.
                    * Determine the number of registered voters (so you know how many copies of the ballot you need to make). Call your Board of Elections for this information. It may also be online.
                    * Design the ballot.  Please label the ballot "PARALLEL ELECTION BALLOT".  Do not copy the official ballot.  Leave a place for people to print their name, address, signature, and date.  To provide the voter some secrecy, fold the ballot over that info and use a glue stick to seal it shut.  It would only be unsealed in the event of a challenge.  Allow the voter to participate without signing the ballot, if that is their desire.
                    * Create or buy a tally sheet
                    * Make ballot box - a cardboard office storage box could work.
                    * After the election, retain ballots and tally sheet until next election.


                  START ASAP WITH OUTREACH:

                    * Call a meeting to organize public support - see SAMPLE PRESS RELEASE, below  Keep the press and public informed.  Do regular press releases to local news media - print, radio, TV (announce the effort, meetings, etc.)  
                    * Contact area civil rights groups and religious organizations for support, including local colleges, etc.
                    * You can do pamphlet drops (SAMPLE PAMPHLET) or mail-outs before the election, but at the very least, be at your local poll on election day - that includes primaries.  It's a great time to introduce voters to the concept. Although one person could handle the job, two or more is definitely better.
                    * Write letters to the editor / do talk radio & community TV / post info on internet (such as:
                    * Order bumper stickers and decals (although I have some that say that you can use, I'm probably going to order others that announce this project. You can also order your own. The following webpage has my supplier's contact information -
                    * Talk to people in your precinct as much as possible.  One-on-one encounters are the most effective.  Have voter registration forms available, as well.  But, don't fill it out registration cards for voters. Advise voters to fill it out and mail it themselves.


                  (SAMPLE PRESS RELEASE)
                  FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

                  The Parallel Election Project (PEP) is hosting an open meeting on (day), (date), (time) at the (place), (address).  Citizens concerned about security risks posed by voting on machines, early, or absentee are invited to attend. For more information, contact: (name - optional / phone / e-mail - optional / website - if available)

                  many green, yellow, blue and now purple dogs are a majority.

                  by Prove Our Democracy with Paper Ballots on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 12:48:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Please look at (0+ / 0-)

              this comment right below on Pinellas in '04.

            •  Please see (0+ / 0-)

              this comment (part of this diary thread) on Pinellas in '04.

          •  Oh every eye can watch (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            73rd virgin

            Not turning their eyes away.
            You can't SEE the problem most of the time, things like this we have been able to see isn't the whole of it or the largest part.

            Election supervisors can all be honest and still have outcomes that are not honest.

            But don't gripe. We value things in this country. Vote counting software is proprietary information. Do you really think elction integrity or a chance in hell for a fair election is more important than protecting a company's proprietary information? Silly liberal.

            •  what I meant by 'more eyes' on voting equipment (0+ / 0-)

              You are right that simply watching a voting machine doesn't tell you if it's rigged. I meant that the whole issue of black box voting, secret voting software, etc, is understood by more people, which helps the situation. If only a few people know about it, nobody can stop bad elections. If many people know about BBV issues, and the election is very lopsided (rather than 50-50, like the 2004 election) towards Dems, we have better odds of detecting if (more like 'how') fraud took place.

              In my personal activism, I am mostly focused on getting Americans informed about Bush's Iraq lies (& impeachment), but I'm aware of BBV issues enough to be a multi-purpose activist if the need arises.

              Bush lied to start a war. Now he wants absolute power as the "War President." We're in deep shit.

              by bejammin075 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 03:31:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Paper ballots aren't proprietary information. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joynow, biscobosco

              They take longer to count, but are more accurate than voting machines. And it's harder, much harder, to cheat with them.

              What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

              by Demfem on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 05:59:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Kerry 2004 opti scan voting machine results (0+ / 0-)

                still unknown. I want to know now before Hurricane Season. Move the trial forward to count those votes now. And, besided though very late (machines build-in delay, your premise is so wrong, no ballots are counted on purpose) didn't Gore really win Florida. I want him for President during Hurricane Season, and Kerry, not Bush.

                many green, yellow, blue and now purple dogs are a majority.

                by Prove Our Democracy with Paper Ballots on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 12:44:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  don't think i've had a comment w/ this many recs (0+ / 0-)

            must have struck a nerve. wow. i'm just stunned.

            Bush lied to start a war. Now he wants absolute power as the "War President." We're in deep shit.

            by bejammin075 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 05:53:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Looks like it hit the main page here, too. (0+ / 0-)

            The cowardice, I mean. Or something. Anyway, pretty silent on the left blogosphere front since Day 1 (that awful Day After).

            Is that "institutionalized," too?

            If the Vox Populi of the netroots' leaders cant get it up ... well ...who expects our institutionalized Dem leaders or institutionalized media to whisper a word of it?

            As for Mark Crispen Miller, Kerry whispers to him ... in private, it seems. About this little problem we have that must remain unspoken.

            When there is so much silence, it gets less cred than Vince Foster's "murder."


            With so much silence, you might just overhear, as I did at my gym (NYU) on the exercise mats: Girl 1 "I have to watch this stupid video for media class."
            Girl 2: "Who's your teacher?" Girl 1: (contemptuously) "Mark Crispen Miller. He's nuts!"

            t-t-t-t-TIN FOIL.

            He's OFF the reservation. Or, the institution.

            Well, he does act all hot and bothered and everyone ignores him ... So what's an institutionalized girl to think? He's nuts! Who is there to object?

            They (just about every commenter I hear on the MSM) call Hugo Chavez's govt unstable. But he gets elected by a fully paper-trailed majority. Ah, that we could have such "instability." We are unstable. Problem is, we dont even know it.

            Life goes on ... blah.

            Should a liberal Dem blog be driven into "safe zones" by a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

            by NYCee on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 04:16:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  'They' being that 'liberal' mainstream media (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nonie3234, sunbro, Dvalkure

          as well as the GOP itself.

          Check out my lte archive at and feel free to use my ideas for your own lte's.

          by DemDachshund on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:21:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  [Headsmack] (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mjd in florida, sunbro, willers, Dvalkure

            oh - yeah, you're right...I didn't think about that.

            Whassup with that? You'd think that this would be a juicy story for somebody. Oh wait - Britney's pregnant? Angelina's giving an interview? Paris is throwing a party?

            Oh, okay - you're right. That's much more important. Sure - you go take care of that. We'll be over here waiting till you're ready.

            [cricket, cricket, cricket]

            If a blogger blogs, and nothing changes, did that blogger actually make a blog?

            ---my Dad

            by Nonie3234 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:37:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  They do howl. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AlanF, neroden

          There are instances of election malfeasance on the part of dems (of course).  However, when you review a Republican "report" the legitimate complaints they are always oveblown, misreported and/or conflated with completely untrue instances of election malfeasance.  Also, many times what the right percieves as wrongdoing is not, such as providing busses from poor neighborhoods to voting stations.

          (I believe a rethug think tank made one of these reports in the past 12 months - I'll look for it)

          Stacked next to each other, however, the instances of truly verifiable election wrongdoing that benefits the Republican candidate far, far outweighs any dem wrongdoing.

          "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

          by Five of Diamonds on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:58:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  A famous quote (0+ / 0-)
        I believe it was Wanda Sykes who said, " How can you blame a blind man for wrecking your car if you are the one who gave him the keys?"

        The lunatics are destroying the asylum. (-6.25,-5.13)

        by Skylor on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 07:05:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Good to see MCM getting more notice (11+ / 0-)

      I set up a KOS account for Mark Crispin Miller and gave it to him. I was trying to encourage him to post here... That was two months ago. Visit his blog News from the underground and urge him to write more here at Dkos

      Then go out and read his book Fooled Again

    •  The critical question (8+ / 0-)

      What we see there are a series of anecdotes that suggest something fraudulent was going on.  That's evidence, but nothing truly concrete becaue it leaves out a major consideration.  That is, how do these voting problems compare to the opposite problem of people trying to vote for Bush and it coming up Kerry?

      If the systems are merely buggy, then they should be buggy in a relatively consistent manner.  It should flip about as many votes one way as the other.  But if they aren't consistent, then it's very likely that there was some sort of fraud perpetrated.

      Frankly, we need paper trails.  Right now because it was all bits in a database, we have no way to verify the votes.  We have no way to see if there was something off in how the votes were registerd.  That is a HUGE problem for the legitimacy of our Democracy.  

      --- If trickle down economics worked, Marie Antoinette wouldn't have lost her head

      by sterno on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:46:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Anyone every heard of a machine changing a vote (5+ / 0-)

        for Bush into one for Kerry? You'd think if it happened, someone would have heard about it.

        On the other hand, my own husband had a touchscreen machine turn his vote for a Democrat into one for a Republican here in Dallas County, only it was't the presidential election.

        •  Why wouldn't have heard about it... (0+ / 0-)

          The one reasonable explanation is that, ultimately, they won.  So nobody is out there trying to dig up evidence of fraud.  But that doesn't mean it's true.  

          --- If trickle down economics worked, Marie Antoinette wouldn't have lost her head

          by sterno on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 02:32:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But you notice it (if at all) (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            while you're voting. At that point, you don't know who has won the election. When you notice the machine incorrectly recording your vote, you complain and get it corrected, right?

            It just seems to me that if this had happened to Republican voters, they would speak up about it to counter these reports circulating about the machines being fixed for Bush.

      •  You are right (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidewinder, vlogger

        We got to have a way to prove that fraud was committed or not. We must keep pushing for legislation to demand paper trials.

    •  Not too much here (6+ / 0-)

      I looked in wikipedia, and the popular vote was around 120,000,000 total.  I can't find numbers on how many were on touch-screens, but it is in the millions no doubt.

      The evidence you cite has problems:

      1.  You are assuming the voter is right.  A confused voter can press the wrong button, and then complain that the vote was "miscounted".  They may be totally angry and adamant, but also totally wrong.  Imagine Grandma or Grandpa, or other non-tech savvy folk.  I bet this "error" happened thousands of times over.  Customer Service people see this type of error every day.
      1.  As someone mentioned above, you would need a random sample of complaints.  The key question becomes who complained more about "wrong votes", the Democrats or Republicans.  This however is hopelessly biased.  Democrats probably would complain more anyway since they are more aware/wary of touch-screen voting in general.  Republicans are more concerned with people voting numerous times or ineligible citizens who vote.
      1.  You assume the voter didn't lie.  A voter opposed to touch-screen voting might vote for Bush, and then claim they voted for Kerry and file a complaint.  This probably happened hundreds if not thousands of times.

      Cherry-picking complaints and anecdotes do nothing to prove voter fraud.  These anecdotes may be the result of true fraud, true malfunction or 1-3 above (and other factors).

      I'm actually very wary of touch-screen voting myself.  But something like a randomized double-blind type test is needed to prove anything.  Tests would have to be conducted during actual elections, with "testers" grabbing a random sample of machines at polling locations unannounced.  They would then simply keep voting all day and check the actual results.  Of course this only tests if the fraud is occurring in individual machines.  Other tests would be needed to test the other weak points.

      As progressives, we should push for these "verification tests" to be a part of every election.  Until there is a paper trail, we will never know for sure.

      •  Exactly - thank you! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avila, seanleckey, vcmvo2

        This is NOT evidence of election fraud.

        ...but not your own facts.

        by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:52:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Greg Palast's new book 'Armed Madhouse' (0+ / 0-)

        dedicates a chapter to the 2004 election and what he predicts in 2008.

        CHAPTER 4
        THE CON
        Kerry Won. Now Get Over It...
        . . . because they're putting '08 in their pocket. Republicans just seem to have that winning spirit. They also have caging lists, felons of the future, rotting ballots, snuffed canaries, and a lock on the votes of Kissinger-Americans and the undead.

        Feudalism is not just history. Welcome to corporate-barons world.

        by vlogger on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 08:15:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My 'non tin foil hat' ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Creosote, Dvalkure, Wbythebay, DonMahoney

      is that I have yet to hear any credible complaints (documented on election day) of mistakes the other way.  

      The election was close ... statistics (if this were 'accident') would say that errors would fall roughly randomly ... at least in terms of complaints the day of election, one would expect that they would fall somewhat evenly Kerry/Bush ...

      Where is the documentation of Bush supporter complaints -- ELECTION DAY -- that their votes went to Kerry when they hit Bush?

      Know of none ... neither do I ...

      9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

      by besieged by bush on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:19:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If Bush had lost... (0+ / 0-)

        You would be hearing about how Kerry personally stuffed ballot boxes in Cleveland on FoxNews 24/7.

        It is a phenomenon known as "sour grapes".

        Sorry, but it is what it is.

        "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players" - Ben Domenech

        by Brownian Motion on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 01:59:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't buy it. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          besieged by bush

          See my comments below:


          In addition, with the Republicans in control of all branches of government and effectively owning outlets like Fox News (founded by Roger Ailes, let's not forget), you would think that widespread pro-Kerry anomalies would have gotten a lot of air play in this election.

          Must read: MLKJ's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." It will surprise you.

          by AlanF on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:38:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually ... (0+ / 0-)

          There were widespread reports of these problems -- including in my precinct in Virginia -- the day of the election ... even when it was being viewed that Kerry seemed to be winning.

          I am far more concerned about the utter lack of prosecutorial efforts against voter suppression activities.  These were widespread -- like the leaflets telling Democrats to show up on Wednesday -- things like this were being reported prior to the election day in multiple states (Ohio, West Virginia, Wisconsin, etc...).  There were zero reports of Republicans receiving flyers directing them to the wrong precincts, telling them that because of likely high voter turnout Republicans were voting on Wednesday, and so on.  The Republican Party has -- as an organization -- admitted in court to be at the center of such activity on widescale basis in the past.  And, those at the head of the RNC today grew up with this type of cutthroat (and unethical) behavior in the college republicans.

          I know there was widespread voter suppression activity, of varying types.  I do not know, but believe that this was -- to some extent -- organized / orchestrated rather than all separate and spontaneous activity.

          Now, do I "know" that there was electronic machine fraud?  No.  Do I believe that there was electronic machine fraud?  Not really sure.  On the other hand, are there serious reasons to be concerned?  I would say yes.  And, none of the efforts to 'test' machines that have shown them quite easy to manipulate have lessened my concern.  We have a system where virtually every machine in our lives (from the McDonald's cash register to elevators to our cable TV connections) is held to a much (MUCH) higher standard than our voting machines.  This concerns me. Not you?

          9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

          by besieged by bush on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:58:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  That's a helluva list... (29+ / 0-)

    if people keep pushing it, maybe it'll gain a life of it's own beyond the "tinfoil hat" crew.

    there are just too many "coincidences" to not point at something being rigged.

    "I worry a great deal about the future of democracy in America"
    - President of St. Lawrence University Daniel Sullivan at Commencement 2004

    by Team Slacker on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 07:55:54 AM PDT

      •  It seems like you might not believe the diarist (0+ / 0-)


        •  which part? (4+ / 0-)

          believe which part?

          this part:

          This is just a sample of the thousands of "anomalies" that were reported to the EIRS during the 2004 election. This batch consists mostly of "vote flipping" in Florida.

          where this first incident in cuyoga county is this:

          010812   10/18/04, 12:00 PM PST   Polling place inquiry   Cuyahoga County County, Ohio   Caller wished to know address of polling place.

          Yeah, i guess you can say i'm not impressed with a list of "complaints" and "questions"

          •  How else can voter fraud be reported? (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            trashablanca, Dvalkure, Wbythebay, ilyana

            Aren't all complaints initially the same until investigated?  

              •  Why not? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                neroden, Dvalkure

                If I call the police and tell them someone hit my care, do they just dismiss it and say, "Well, that's just a complaint?"

                •  strange. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  slouise217, drag0n

                  And if you call the police to ask how late they are open, should they start an investigation?

                  go back and read what I quoted above, then you will understand.

                  •  I don't think that's evidence of anything (15+ / 0-)

                    Your point is that some things aren't complaints on the list?

                    I want to know what you disagree with.  

                    Let's forget that it's a cut and paste, let's forget that it's older.  

                    If you have many complaints which are similar in nature, and you have a system where there is no current way of recounting the votes, can't you investigate the problem?  

                    I think that's what people want.  People want an official investigation into the problems.  

                    When you have a company providing the equipment whose CEO is a major Republican supporter, it seems strange.  Add to that exit polling diescrpencies from around the country, isn't it worth investigating?  I'm not convinced, either, but it at least warrants some work.

                    •  ok. (6+ / 0-)

                      I want to know what you disagree with.  

                      1.) this is a shitty diary.
                      It is a copy & paste job from another website, and the diarist isn't here.

                      2.) this diary lies.
                      This is just a sample of the thousands of "anomalies". There are not thousands more of these, those were handpicked.

                      3.) The implication is that because there are voting process complaints the election was rigged. This is an illogical leap.

                      4.) people eat it up, and honestly, get stupider for it.

                      5.) No where in this diary is there a solution. It's a threat one along the lines of, "if you don't think the election was rigged you are stupid." No one is arguing that electronic voting with no paper verification is a good thing, why is the diarist combative.

                      6.) the whole thing is unproductive. There is a real need for a paper trail, there are real people really working on these real issues.

                      7.) why conflate the need for real reform with heated rhetoric about rigged elections.

                      8.) no prespective. this list is not impressive. it is such a tiny tiny sample.

                      eh, i'm done.

                      •  So basically you disagree with the methods (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        It's understandable.  

                        Let's have an investigation into the problem.  Do you agree?

                        •  no. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          No, I don't plan to investigate the problem. Why do you ask me?

                          Seriously, investigate the 2004 election, or electronic voting methods?

                          If the former sure, let's have an investigation. I'll take an ice cream cone too. If the latter, there is legislation already, write your congressperson.

                          •  RIght, I meant you should investigate (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dvalkure, Wbythebay

                            Why bother responding if you're gonna do that.  

                            There are reported problems with the election, there are reported problems with electronic voting machines.   Why limit the investigation?

                            I'm asking you, because I thought you'd agree it makes sense.  

                          •  Don't bother. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            Jacob is not arguing honestly.  From what I can gather, he doesn't see any instance in the whole wide world that voter fraud should be investigated?  Why?  I have no idea, since the Republicans have no problem lying to send Americans to die for no reason, no problem breaking the law to spy on its own citizens, and no problem torturing people for fun -- so is it really such a stretch to believe they'd steal an election?  Hell no.  

                            But Jacob makes no indication as to when or under what circumstances an investigation of voter fraud would be warranted.  Instead, with that condescending little tone of his, he tries to make you feel stupid -- even after you tried to find common ground with him.

                            Guys like Jacob are part of the problem.

      •  Just a little ice (13+ / 0-)

        floating on the sea.  Full steam ahead, there is nothing to worry about, a little ice in .00001% of the ocean.

        "I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson -8.13, -4.56

        by NearlyNormal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:28:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  what seems to be significant... (15+ / 0-)

        is that 0.0001% of the nation had trouble voting for Kerry.. that's a statistical impossibility, it should have been 0.00005% having trouble voting for Bush and 0.00005% having trouble voting for Kerry.  As far as I know, there haven't been any reported problems like this from Republicans' or at least, they don't seem to show themselves as much.

        •  smarter? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Frank, Caldonia, drag0n

          why would they complain of voting irregularities if they won?

          •  Good point (4+ / 0-)

            because all of the above cases clearly happened after we already knew Kerry had lost.  It's just a case of us being sore losers.  That's gotta be it.


            "I worry a great deal about the future of democracy in America"
            - President of St. Lawrence University Daniel Sullivan at Commencement 2004

            by Team Slacker on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:42:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It doesn't matter who won. (7+ / 1-)

            If someone voted for Bush and got Kerry, the individual would be making a complaint about it, especially those who wanted to counter the claims that all the funny business benefitted Bush and Bush only.

            But I'm sure you're right.  It's just that Republicans are smarter than Democrats.  

            -4.88, -8.21 "I love this country!" - Yakov Smirnoff

            by CommiePinkoScum on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:46:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  wrong. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rick Oliver, drag0n

              republicans are not smarter than democrats.


              Oriole Gardens Clubhouse, 7400 NW 5th Ct., Margate, Broward County, Florida

              She had to select presidential choice 2x before correct choice was reflected. Got help from poll worker; successfully voted. Voted Bush, Kerry got highlighted.

              •  I guess I don't get what you're saying. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                neroden, Dvalkure, vome minnesota, lazybum

                I didn't read through all the examples so I didn't see the one you highlighted.  It does appear, however, there's a problem with the machines, that they select the wrong candidate, regardless of who it is.  So those who tried to vote Bush are also reported.

                As ragnark pointed out, it's not a 50/50 split, though, which is concerning.  Maybe it's just what was highlighted in this list that makes it seem skewed, I dunno.  I'll defer to someone else's research.

                You, however, say there's no problem with the machines, it's just voter stupidity.  I don't understand what made you determine that.  The notes that they "got help from poll worker"?

                -4.88, -8.21 "I love this country!" - Yakov Smirnoff

                by CommiePinkoScum on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:54:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  woah (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  You, however, say there's no problem with the machines, it's just voter stupidity.

                  Woah. talk about misrepresentation.

                  I guess it's like you said: some people only see the truth they choose to see regardless of the facts.

                  As ragnark pointed out, it's not a 50/50 split, though, which is concerning.

                  It's not concerning. It makes perfect sense.

                  It does appear, however, there's a problem with the machines, that they select the wrong candidate, regardless of who it is.

                  There is no evidence of that from this list. Maybe people have fat fingers.

                  •  Maybe they do. (0+ / 0-)

                    Wouldn't that warrant some state mandated investigation into how to make the machines more accurate?  

                  •  Fine. (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sidewinder, zinger99, Wbythebay, lazybum

                    You have, in several posts, clearly implied that just a small fraction of the population had trouble voting, possibly because of their intelligence, and it's insignificant.

                    I didn't understand your point -- possibly because your one-word snarks aren't very explanatory -- and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  Instead you accuse me of ignoring the facts because I have an agenda.  Nice way to treat someone who was wanting to hear more about YOUR opinion.

                    But your petulant attitude makes it pretty clear that, at least on this topic, you're a borderline troll.  Clutching your pearls in mock surprise at the reaction you're getting only strengthens the impression.

                    -4.88, -8.21 "I love this country!" - Yakov Smirnoff

                    by CommiePinkoScum on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:08:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  sorry. (1+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Hidden by:

                      i don't handle people purposely misrepresenting my case.

                      possibly because of their intelligence

                      repeatedly in order to demean my character.

                      apologies, good luck to you.

                      •  What is your case? (0+ / 0-)

                        Could you state your opposition to this?  

                      •  Sorry. (8+ / 0-)

                        I don't cotton to blowhards who come to DK occasionally to "challenge people to LOGICALLY make the leap" on this issue, "hopefully" opening people's eyes.  It's especially irritating that you would then refuse to explain why you don't think there's a correlation between the voting problems and election fraud.  Especially to those of us who are interested in it and asked you to clarify.  It's not just me, others are asking.

                        If you think I'm misrepresenting you, then correct me.  Explain yourself.  I can't read your mind and your short, one-word and one-line snarky posts don't elaborate.  You've spent more time telling people they are attacking you personally than you have explaining your position, and to me, that says a lot.  It's no wonder you get trollrated.

                        -4.88, -8.21 "I love this country!" - Yakov Smirnoff

                        by CommiePinkoScum on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:23:58 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Both ways? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  I wondered about that example too. Put on the tinfoil hat for a second, I have a theory...

                  Perhaps while in the process of rigging the machines for Bush, they also rigged a few to reverse Bush votes over to Kerry, just to make it look like it wasn't just Kerry->Bush. It's definitely plausible. Rig 10 machines for Bush and then rig 2 the other way. Bush still comes out way ahead, but it looks like it's not a Kerry->Bush-specific problem.

            •  Oh for crying out loud. (9+ / 0-)

              Thanks for the troll rating.  Did you not get the snark or am I being mean to poor jacob wi for asking him to please explain himself?  

              -4.88, -8.21 "I love this country!" - Yakov Smirnoff

              by CommiePinkoScum on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:17:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Why do trolls show up? (0+ / 0-)

            I suppose you DIDN"T listen to MSM's talk.  Go listen, and listen AGAIN.  The vote was stolen.


            After the Rapture, we'll get all their stuff! Hummingbird's Blog

            by Hummingbird on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:57:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Excellent point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            What we have here is a rash of unproved accusations with no supporting evidence made by people who insist that "random errors" caused their 'Kerry' vote to change to 'Bush'.  So their should be an equal number of Republicans insisting the machine changed their 'Bush' vote to 'Kerry', right?  

            Where are they?

            "Congressman DeLay, Colonel Danny Bubp asked me to send you a message - that cowards cut and run" - Representative Jean Schmidt

            by EeDan on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:03:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it is not a difficult thing .. (0+ / 0-)

              for a knowledgable programmer to, a psuedo-random number of times over the course of a time interval, change the value in a register or other memory location from one value to another one. Such a routine, written in C, would probably be only a couple of kilobytes in length, & could easily be hidden in one of the many DLL's that run on these glorified PCs that pass as voting machines.

              And, if the programmer were really clever, all of this would happen completely transparently to the user.

              That some people are seeing it happen is more likely to be evidence of machine malfunction than deliberate fraud, IMHO.

              That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a complete & thourough investigation of the issues - whose result are completely & openly disclosed.

              American voting systems ought to be the most open & honest in the world - and we cannot say today that that is a fact.

          •  Because they love to complain n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jacob wi
          •  Wouldn't you think that...... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hugo Estrada

            if a Bush supporter was in the booth on election day, pressed Bush and the verification screen came up for Kerry they would scream bloody murder??? They wouldn't wait until AFTER the election results were in. This would have been reported immediately. Their lack of reporting on this issue seems to me only to to add to the validity of vote rigging in Florida.

            •  Now this a very good point (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hugo Estrada
              Imagine, after the Republicans start losing elections, just how fast our paperless voting machines will be fixed!

              Yes!  I never thought of this before.

              All we have to do is win one election, then the freepers will go hog wild about how effed up the voting machines are.

              Cool, this gives me hope.

              In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

              by yet another liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:25:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  FUck this fucking ratings system (15+ / 0-)

        This is an unproductive fucking comment.

        And here I sit, hamstrung by a crappy ratings system, unable to downrate a crappy fucking comment, because the only rating that's a downrate is a TROLL rating.

        Count me among the many who think your comment is utter bullshit, though I shan't be troll rating you.

        •  thanks maryscott (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rick Oliver

          whats so fucking crappy about my comment. this is a fucking shitty diary.

          the only fucking thing it is is a list of complaints. some of them no doubt are fake.

          what's the fucking point of the diary?

          if i posted the other "complaints" would that make a recommendable diary too?

          I'm all for a paper trail this doesnt fucking help.

          •  Go get a list of all the other complaints (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            and post them all.  then we can look at every single one of them and figure this all out.

            "I worry a great deal about the future of democracy in America"
            - President of St. Lawrence University Daniel Sullivan at Commencement 2004

            by Team Slacker on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:20:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Maryscott (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jacob wi, zinger99, Dvalkure, lazybum

            As usual, a sardonic perspective.  ; )

            I’ve looked back at jacob's comments and I can't tell if s/he is just a stickler for detail or simply a professional troll - here, at redstate, God knows where else.  There are plenty of people who simply like to argue, the topic doesn't matter.

            Jacob, I'm going to give you the benefit and assume that you're simply making a point about doing something besides bitchin' about the problem.   Point well made.  And to show there are no hard feelings, something extra for you: (sorry, it is cut-and-paste though)


            • 1/2 cup butter, melted
            • 1 cup granulated sugar
            • 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
            • 2 eggs
            • 1/2 cup flour
            • 1/3 cup unsweetened cocoa
            • 1/4 teaspoon baking powder
            • 1/4 teaspoon salt
            • 1/2 cup chopped walnuts

            • Chocolate Walnut Icing
            • 1 1/3 cups confectioners' sugar
            • 3 tablespoons butter or margarine
            • 2 tablespoons cocoa
            • 2 tablespoons milk
            • 1/4 teaspoon vanilla
            • 1/4 cup chopped walnuts


            In a large mixing bowl, blend butter, sugar and vanilla. Add eggs; beat well with a spoon. In a small bowl, combine flour, cocoa, baking powder and salt; gradually blend into wet mixture. Stir in pecans. Spread batter in lightly greased and floured 8- or 9-inch square pan. Bake at 350° for 20 to 25 minutes, or until brownies just begin to pull away from sides of pan. Prepare icing and frost while brownies are still warm.

            Place powdered sugar in medium mixing bowl. Melt the 3 tablespoons of butter or margarine in a small saucepan over low heat; stir in 2 tablespoons of cocoa, blending until smooth. Add milk; stir constantly over low heat until mixture has thickened slightly. Pour hot mixture over the powdered sugar; beat until smooth. Stir in 1/4 teaspoon vanilla and 1/4 cup chopped walnuts. Spread warm icing over still-warm brownies.

            "Congressman DeLay, Colonel Danny Bubp asked me to send you a message - that cowards cut and run" - Representative Jean Schmidt

            by EeDan on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:51:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and to show you there are no hard feelings. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              seanleckey, DonMahoney

              A small sample of the thousands of anomalies the diarist referenced.


              011896   10/19/04, 11:13 AM PST   Registration-related problem   Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio   Male. Wanted to confirm that he is registered to vote, and where he would go. He completed registration form 8/2004.

              013125 10/20/04, 1:46 PM PST Registration-related problem Fairview Park., Cuyahoga County, Ohio The voter moved within Cuyahoga County, Ohio 3 or 4 years ago, and wanted to know if he can vote.

              013522 10/21/04, 11:28 AM PST Polling place inquiry Cuyohoga County, Ohio Wants to know polling place.

              013620 10/21/04, 1:34 PM PST Registration-related problem Cleveland, Cuyahoga County County, Ohio Caller works for an organization involved in a voter registration campaign (ACT). On Sept. 20 she registered person mentioned in persons affected section. The person affected was concerned that his application would not be submitted. He then submitted another application. Both the caller and the person affected were then told that he could not vote because his is on probation for 1 year. The caller does not know if it is because of a felony or misd.

              013667 10/21/04, 2:36 PM PST Other Cuyahoga County, Ohio Members of Project Vote passed out information with this number, but told if you registered you may not be able to vote.

              013669 10/21/04, 2:27 PM PST Registration-related problem Cuyahoga County, Ohio individual wanted to know whether he was registered to vote

              013725 10/21/04, 4:00 PM PST Registration-related problem Cuyahoga County, Ohio Voter wanted to know if she is registered to vote. Given the phone number for the County Clerk for Cuyahoga County

              013834 10/22/04, 6:45 AM PST Registration-related problem cleveland, cuyhoga County, Ohio checking to see if registered

              013935 10/22/04, 8:22 AM PST Absentee-ballot related problem cuyahoga County, Ohio

              013961 10/22/04, 9:18 AM PST Registration-related problem Maple Heights, Cuyahoga County, Ohio Phoned the County Election Office, you were registered to vote at this address; you voted in 2000 and have not voted since then, and phoned to confirm your registration and to identify the polling station where she needed to vote. Was informed that her registration was considered inactive and that she was not elligible to vote in the 2004 election.

              013983 10/22/04, 9:41 AM PST Registration-related problem Strongsville, Cuyahoga County, Ohio Moved within the county, finding out where to vote

              013987 10/22/04, 9:47 AM PST Registration-related problem Maple Heights , cuyahoga County, Ohio

              014023 10/22/04, 10:43 AM PST Registration-related problem Cuyahoga County, Ohio Caller wanted to make sure he's on the voting rolls (he registered at local library but never got registration card).

              014032 10/22/04, 11:01 AM PST Registration-related problem Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio Caller registered to vote before deadline (4 Oct) but has not yet received registration card.

              014146 10/22/04, 1:48 PM PST Registration-related problem Cuyahoga County County, Ohio Registered to vote at the library in July of 2004, has not received her voter registration card.

        •  actually, I prefer the new ratings system (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alice in Florida, Alohaleezy, viral
          Because it has reduced ratings wars and now people are forced to comment instead of rate.

          And that's better because we get more dialog and get peoples' true feelings out.


          In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

          by yet another liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:09:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Long pissing matches over the meaning and/or fairness of "2"s or "1"s (often longer and more emotional than any discussion of the origianl issue) are a thing of the past, thank God. Most troll-rating incidents I've seen lately have been accidental.

            "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

            by Alice in Florida on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 03:15:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  meanwhile (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          many very good diaries are being missed because of this tripe.

        •  I agree with you too MSOC... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zinger99, willers, lazybum

          It's not a real trollish comment but that's our only options - troll or recommend. Can we get a 1 around here?? ;)

          •  action (0+ / 0-)

            action? solution?

            its not unproductive to challenge people to something other than theorize how the consiparcy what executed is it?

            justalittlebitcrazy, you see this list of voting complaints... what do you feel?

            now, what are you going to do?

            •  well.... (0+ / 0-)

              It certainly makes me a little more crazy to see this list and I also agree with you too. While it is enlightening to be talking about this and seeing this list, we should also be calling for action.

              Still, on further reflection, I believe that most people took offense to the tone of your comment:

              nice copy & paste job.

              so what are you doing about it?

              besides pointing out that 0.0001 % of the nation had trouble voting?

              But I think we can all agree that we should be doing something more about it than just talking. But what should we do?

              •  a list? (0+ / 0-)

                maybe a list of complaints about the 2004 election?

                •  Uh... (0+ / 0-)

                  Isn't that exactly what this diary is...?

                  I don't like Bizarro World... I want to go home to America.

                  by willers on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:23:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ah, no, it's NOT (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    seanleckey, vcmvo2, jacob wi, drag0n

                    This diary is NOT a list of complaints about the 2004 election.

                    Someone calling in to find out if they are registered, and getting an answer, is NOT a complaint, is it?

                    This diary is a list of anecdotal information that doesn't come anywhere close to proving election fraud, yet it implies that it does.

                    It ALSO doesn't address any solutions.

                    What has to happen is someone takes this info and says 'here are POTENTIAL problems, and here are solutions so people can be surer that electin fraud is NOT happening.

                    ...but not your own facts.

                    by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:02:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And I JUST finished listening to Mark Crispin (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zappini, vcmvo2

                      And I am not convinced that he has proof, based upon his almost hour long speech, that he has proof that the election was stolen.

                      The 2004 election had significant issues.

                      We need a better system that does NOT allow election fraud.

                      But too many elections officials are turned off when they are accused of fraud.

                      You tell them, tell people who WORK in elections, that you KNOW that they want honest elections, that you want to work with them to eliminate the chance that fraud can happen, and they will work with you.

                      Tell them that you KNOW that fraud happened, when we DON'T know that, and they just get pissed off, and tend to NOT listen to anything else you might say.

                      Election fraud has happened for decades. Crispin admits that. But he overstates his case and provided no evidence, in that streaming audio, that backs up his assertions that there was sufficient election fraud to change the Presidential election results.

                      In fact, John Kerry, the person whose candidancy was the one that was directly affected, does NOT support Crispin's assertions that the election was stolen. Crispin admits that too.

                      ...but not your own facts.

                      by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:56:05 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  AT MLW, the 1 is the only rating... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zinger99, Wbythebay

            (besides the Troll Zero, that is) that's actually negative.

            The rest (and they go to eleven) are an extension of communicating. I realise it would probably be impossible to implement anything like that here...

            but I must say, my "Total Fucking Bullshit" 1 rating is absolutely apropos for the referenced comment.

        •  Hey Maryscott (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Maryscott OConnor, zinger99

          I think the rating system on MLW is far superior. :)

          I don't think this all or nothing rating system works very well either.

          After the Rapture, we'll get all their stuff! Hummingbird's Blog

          by Hummingbird on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:57:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  i havent the foggiest (0+ / 0-)

        idea why this was trollrated.

    •  people do NOT want to believe this (18+ / 0-)

      people won't believe their government would steal the elections.

      they would have to believe that Bush lied about Iraq, among many other lies.  that's alot of inertia to overcome.  

      do we have that fight? & do are people able to listen critically?

      many people just won't.

      i think we need a 2 prong strategy:
       1.  The direct election fraud charge
       2.  The moderate "Clean Elections" approach.

      I know some people complain about #1 but it does have it's advantages.

      Example, & don't get offended:  the MinuteMen.

      The MinuteMen are wrong but they have succeeded in getting attention to the immigration issue.

      No, I'm not comparing us to the MM - I for one believe the election fraud occured - nor am I advocating violence.

      But #1 does get this issue attention but we have to present our case for #1 in a rational, non-emotional way to be taken seriously - or like it or not, we'll be laughed off & that will hurt our cause, which really is #2 election reform.

      While we bayonet them with #1 (& some people will agree with us), we need to hammer with #2 as a moderate approach.

      Good cop.  Bad cop.

      2 cents

      •  people do not *understand* (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        frisco, Fe, kharma, neroden
        They don't understand the implications of paperless voting machines.

        That's why Americans need a leader who can teach them this simple truth.

        They'll figure out the rest.  I don't believe they trust politicians, in general.  I think Americans have no problem believing Karl Rove and Dick Cheney would steal the election, none at all.

        But, in any case, we need to be forward looking and lead people into the future.

        In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

        by yet another liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:53:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I believe evidence (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        seanleckey, vcmvo2, jacob wi

        This is not evidence of election fraud, however.

        ...but not your own facts.

        by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:05:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you, krazypuppy (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        biscobosco, sidewinder, corvo

        Americans are very reluctant to believe stories of electoral fraud because it is too horrible. Electoral fraud is what happens in third world countries. To believe that electoral fraud happens in the U.S. must be something that crazy conspiracy theorist dream up.

        Well, I grew up in Mexico, and this election reminds me of the good old days in the old country.

        Back then people who claimed that the elections were stolen got accussed of being sore losers and fringe nutcases. Every irregularity was dismissed as an "isolated incident."

        Nevertheless, the oposition kept pushing for electoral reform after electoral reform, making fraud more and more difficult and making accountability easier and easier to do.

        The voter card when from being a near-blank card with your name and signature on it to a high-security card with your photograph, finger print, signature, and holographic tinted card.

        Democratic groups became better and better at watching the elections. Eventually Mexico transitioned into democracy without the need of a violent civil war.

        Today, in the U.S., we need to improve our electoral system so that it is easier to verify its legality and harder to commit fraud.

        This means waging campaign like the one that you outlined, krazypuppy. One group can highlight the irregularities to the media with lists like the one in this diary.

        The other groups keeps pushing for stronger and stronger electoral legislation.

        Today this list is dismissed as "anecdotal evidence" because it just never occurred to us to organize statistically sound random tests.

        The "anecdotal" evidence leads me to believe this is fraud because it sound like the kind of stunts that they did in Mexico, because the Republican Party has a long history of committing unethical electoral irregularities, and because of the statements in favor of Bush made by the people running the companies that created the paperless voting machine, which main feature is that they are recount-proof.

        And remember that we live in times where razor-thin advantages win election: all what it is needed to win is to commit just a few incidents of fraud here and there to tilt the election. We should not expect evidence of massive fraud because there will not be there: it is not necessary.

        We need voter reform in the U.S. and krazypuppy has outlined a good strategy on how to get it. Thanks again, KP.

    •  troll rated (5+ / 0-)
      can't believe i got troll rated for asking what is being done. way to suppress conversation.

      i won't be intimidated though.

      besides copying and pasting a list of complaints that represents .0001% of the voters, what is this diarist doing to eliminate voting troubles.

      if 100% voting satisfaction is the goal, what is the method?

      •  I brought your comment out of hidden (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        seanleckey, viral, drag0n

        It's an emotional topic.  You should have been here a year and a half ago.  Yikes!

        In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

        by yet another liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:57:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can't believe the same (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timoteo, Hugo Estrada, Dunbar, Wbythebay

          Old tired hackneyed bullshit is being brought up again after the majority of us already know it was stolen.  There's proof.  John Conyers wrote a damned book about it. Voter intimidation, fraud and manipulation of the machines.  It's just disappointing as hell that we have to yet again deal with idiots/trolls.  What did they just hatch today?

          After the Rapture, we'll get all their stuff! Hummingbird's Blog

          by Hummingbird on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:01:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  if the election weren't so close to start with (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            seanleckey, Hugo Estrada, neroden
            Then 2004 wouldn't even be an issue.  This whole argument and troll rate business is predictable.

            My opinion is that we should focus on the fact that paperless voting machines are not verifiable and are the biggest threat we face to democracy.

            Then, we can get past the past.

            In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

            by yet another liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:05:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  We DON'T know that 2004 was stolen (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, Hugo Estrada

            I have no idea why you would say that we do know that.

            We don't.

            We DO know that there were quite a few shenanigans. We do know that there was some voter disenfranchisement, and it seems apparent that some of it could easily have been purposeful.

            But we don't know that the election in 2004 was stolen.

            ...but not your own facts.

            by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:07:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  2004 was stolen (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sidewinder, corvo, Wbythebay

              Or at least we have enough evidence that Republicans were working hard on stealing the election. Remember how there was so much voter registration irregularities months before the election?

              In Catholic University the local Young Republicans were registering people to vote. Those who registered Republican were put in the mail. Those registered Democratic were put in the trash.

              Stuff like this happened all over the place.

              What we lack is enough evidence to prove beyond doubt that it was stolen. I agree with you on this.

              This means that we need voter reform so that we will be able to collect data to be able to protect our process better the next time.

              •  We do NOT know it was stolen (0+ / 0-)

                And that is what I said.

                Yet you title your post 2004 was stolen.

                Who said we DIDN'T need election reform?

                Huh? Where did I say that?

                That's right, I didn't.

                And it's NOT voter reform.

                Voter fraud is individual voters misrepresenting who they are, and that kind of stuff.

                Vote fraud is maybe what you mean, but election fraud covers multiple topics.

                Voter reform or voter fraud is a VERY small part of the problem.

                There are voter registration issues each election, and those issues do need to be addressed. That's what the HAVA tried to do.

                Read about it from Jimmy Carter's website.

                ...but not your own facts.

                by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:03:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  thanks (0+ / 0-)

          You should have been here a year and a half ago.

          i was.

          i like to show up in these threads occassionally and challenge people to LOGICALLY make the leap from "people had trouble voting" to "the election was stolen"

          hopefully some eyes open up.

      •  I rated you up. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidewinder, Rick Oliver, dannyinla

        Don't worry about it. Folks are reactive. It's natural. It's a sensitive issue. I don't agree with you, btw, just don't think it should be hidden.

        ... we now know a lot of things, most of which, we already knew... (-dash888)

        by Tirge Caps on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:01:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I rated you up..... (0+ / 0-)

        ..however, it doesn't mean I recommend your comment, just that I think you were unfairly marked down.

      •  I troll rated you (7+ / 0-)

        Because you're being an argumentative dick about this diary, which I think IS doing something about the problem by giving people information and continuing to keep it in front of our faces lest we forget.

        If you want to have a real adult-type conversation, perhaps even making real suggestions yourself as to what can be done about it, that would be welcomed. As it is now, you're only being an argumentative dick. I troll rate those, not having access to a "1" any longer.

        I don't like Bizarro World... I want to go home to America.

        by willers on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:28:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  further (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rick Oliver

      what can i do to help achieve 100% voter satisfaction?

    •  'sample' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      also, to see the actual list of the "thousands" of anomalies, go luck yourself.

      here is cuyago county. the vast majority are "where do i vote" "complaints" mp;tab=ED04&state=Ohio&county=Cuyahoga&pagetop=0

    •  Just looking at that list... (0+ / 0-)

      convinced me that it was the result of controlled demolition.

      Too many coincidences.

      "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players" - Ben Domenech

      by Brownian Motion on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 02:01:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because it won't go to court (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and there is no other peaceful solution.

      "Live free or take it up the ass every day for the rest of your life." - Gen. John Stark, patriot

      by paraphrase on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:47:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidewinder, neroden

        Everyone is afraid of employing the only solutions available.

        I'm afraid of not employing them.

        "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

        by zeitshabba on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:54:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nailed it. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        paraphrase, sidewinder, dirtfarmer

        Even Kerry himself knows the election was stolen.  But what is there to do besides taking up arms against the Bushies?

        Nothing.  There is nothing to be done.  The media will not cover it, courts won't hear it, it's all being suppressed.  And short of violence, there is no solution.

        It is easier to rationalize the evidence away than it is to pick up arms.  So rationalize is what we do.

        "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

        by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:47:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well.... (3+ / 0-)

        In most states we still have state-level democracy.  So we can do our best to force through honest elections in our states.

        This may not be true anymore in Ohio, with its recently passed HB3, best described as a voter disenfranchisement act; among its most noxious provisions are a prohibition (!) on counting the paper trails from electronic voting machines, and a prohibition on all state court lawsuits challenging elections.

        There are still peaceful solutions.  They're just a lot more radical.  For instance, go to the UN and demand that they investigate.  Sue in the International Court of Justice.  Invite in international election monitors (regardless of what the state government wants).

        Eventually, refuse to recognize the Ohio state government; hold mass protests outside its Capitol and shut them down peacefully.  Mass civil disobedience would do it.

      •  We need stronger evidence (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        biscobosco, sidewinder, corvo

        That is what I find so frustrating about this. We know it happened, we have evidence that it happened, but it just is not strong enough to have a case.

        We still need to document what happened in 2004, and prepare for 2006 and 2008. With enough preparation we may be able to have more solid evidence if Republicans try these stunks again.

  •  Hey, just anecodotal pattern! (38+ / 0-)


    They can add my testimonial to the list.  I unambiguously voted for FL-Senate Betty Castor (D) and the summary screen said I had voted for Mel Martinez (R).  I was able to correct it...with a hope that that my vote was recorded correctly.

    According to local press after the election, some machines needed to be "tweaked."  Yeah, right.

    Regardless whether these incidents were the result of deliberate voter fraud, the overwhelming evidence of malfunctioning machines indicates a product fraud.

  •  I live in Leon County (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ranting Roland, neroden

    I feel left out.

  •  the thing to keep hammering to Republicans is (27+ / 0-)

    since they claim this happens "all the time" and that fraud is always rampant, then where are their allegations of people trying to vote for Bush and getting Kerry instead?  How come 99 44/100% of the touchscreen errors reported favor Republicans (Bush, Martinez) or hurt Democrats (votes for Libertarian Browne instead of Kerry).

    I pray that the person responsible for this pattern of fraud either gets caught or his conscience gets the better of him and he confesses.  Either way, I just hope that the truth about all this comes out in my lifetime and that Bush, so concerned now about his legacy, goes down in history as a president who was never legitimately elected.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D. IMPEACH!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:24:15 AM PDT

  •  Democracy is on the march, (5+ / 0-)

    headlong into oblivion.

  •  Has there ever been documented (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Peanut, smintheus, kenjib, ForFreedom

    or even suggested, an incident where a Bush vote went for Kerry?

  •  Palm Beach County (16+ / 0-)
    I was an Election Protection poll watcher in Palm Beach County and several people complained of vote switching - which we reported back to HQ.  Throughout the day we walked up and down the long line of voters telling them to carefully check the summary page before submitting their vote - and to get help if it did not reflect their real choice.  Sure enough - it kept happening.  I'm glad we were there.  

    We were in the airport the next morning when Kerry conceded.  It was a long sad flight back to California.

  •  Video Documentation (6+ / 0-)

    At the risk of sounding it permissible to videotape your voting session?

    It would be very powerful to compile a "reel" of these anomalies.

    Perhaps it could be coordinated at suspect polling places by gathering a supply of cameras and offering them to voters.

    •  It's not permissable (4+ / 0-)

      The protection of the secret ballot is absolute.  Otherwise, your employer, for instance, could ask you to tape yourself and then show him to prove that you voted for the right person.  

      This may seem outlandish, but in Chicago three decades ago, the essence of the machine was being certain that your people voted the right way.  There was 'chain voting', where the captain stole 1 ballot, completed it and gave it to you to vote.  You then went in, requested a ballot, pretended to complete it, turned in the pre-marked ballot, and gave your blank to the captain, who gave it to the next person going in, and so on.  Benefits and punishments were levied (inspections ordered or city fines fixed, etc.) on the  basis of whether you were willing to take part.

      •  Of course it is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        If you do it yourself, or choose to have it done for you. No one can watch you or compel you to disclose your vote, or record it without your knowledge or consent, but you can choose to do so. Otherwise, you would not be able to post a comment like "I voted for Kerry" or call in a poll worker to help you vote.

        They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Franklin

        by carolita on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:03:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, you're absolutely wrong (0+ / 0-)

          It is absolutely not permissable.

          That's why there are no receipts given out. Although it's true that you could tell your boss or your political boss "I won't show you my receipt", many people would.

          The threat to honest elections from allowing people to verify to others how  they voted is serious.  The law is clear.  You can not videotape how others voted, but you also can't videotape how you yourself voted.

    •  with cell phone cameras and video... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      spacebaby, Ranting Roland, ilyana

      devices with "clandestine" recording capabilities are becoming more widespread. it shouldn't be too hard to snap a quick photo or video of your results without anyone knowing you did it.

    •  I photographed mine (0+ / 0-)
      I photographed mine with a little point and shoot.  I voted early in California, and the only choice was to use the Diebold screens.   I wanted to document my vote, not that it mattered, really.   When you hand the card back to the election workers, you have no idea what's really on the card.  

      The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer -- Henry Kissinger

      by theyrereal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:50:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  3 critical points here... (5+ / 0-)
    1. Kerry's ultimate reported margin in Broward proved to be lower than expected.  IIRC, it was visibly smaller than Gore's was.
    1. Broward has a large population of retirees from the NE.  This population has aged in recent years, and it was theorized that Kerry's margin dropped b/c this population is starting to die off.  B/c the sensory capabilities of much of this population is diminished, they might be esp suceptible to this type of fraud.
    1. While W's reported margin in FL was pretty substantial, Sideshow Mel's reported margin in the Senate race was only 87k votes.  It's far more likely that the Senate race was stolen than that the prez race was stolen here.  Since a close friend was fairly high up in the Castor campaign and since one of my partners was a neighbor of hers growing up, I have personal feelings about this one.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:51:06 AM PDT

    •  I have to wonder how you can know this (5+ / 0-)

      that the presidential vote was unlikely or less likely to have been compromised? If many of the touch screens in use 'malfunctioned' extensively, then how can one determine
      (a) what proportion of the votes "cast" on 'malfunctioning' machines was compromised
      (b) what proportion of the machines in use were 'malfunctioning'

      Without that information (probably unretrievable now), there's no way of knowing whether the declared result for any race is sound.

      That's the core problem. One cannot trust these machines. Therefore every result they generate is suspect. Cuts right to the heart of our democracy.

      Inconvenient News Doing my part to afflict the comfortable.

      by smintheus on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:07:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm saying that the vastly narrower margin... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        neroden, NearlyNormal, dirtfarmer

        in the Senate race makes it much more likely that the end result was compromised there.  W is reported to have carried FL by almost 400k votes.  Mel is reported to have won the Senate race by only 87k votes.  It's about 4 times more likely, accordingly, that the Senate election was stolen as it was that the prez election was stolen here.

        As far as the integrity of the whole process being in question, I agree w/ you 100%.  Posters on this site spend countless hours on political matters.  It's entirely possible that they are devoting this amount of time to a rigged game.  Having seen the 2000 election stolen here, I take that issue very seriously.  I wish that there was a broad consensus on this site that shared my perspective.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:23:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  whistle blower was hired to help rig S. FL votes (9+ / 0-)

        If you are not familiar, Bradblog did extensive reporting on Clint Curtis, a life-long Republican who was asked by Rep. Tom Feeney of FL to help write software that Feeney would use to help rig the votes in South Florida. Clint Curtis blew the whistle on what he was hired to do. Then, it did turn out that South Florida has anomolous voting.

        Clint Curtis gave sworn video-taped testimony before a House forum (would have been a full-fledged hearing, if Repubs cared to show up). Clint Curtis also voluntarily took a lie detector test, and passed.

        Clint Curtis is actually now trying to run against Feeney for the Repub primary in Feeney's district.

        Bradblog's Clint Curtis vote-rigging scandal:

        Bush lied to start a war. Now he wants absolute power as the "War President." We're in deep shit.

        by bejammin075 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:37:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Touch screen sensitivity (6+ / 0-)

    could cause this kind of thing to happen without there being any master plan.  The real question, assuming there is a bias to the touch screens themselves, is whether the elections officials deliberately placed certain names in places favored by the sensitivity.

    How many incidents of the reverse happened?  How many people pushed 'Bush' and got 'Kerry'?  That's the info we need to truly determine if there was bias or fraud.

    Do not misunderstand me, I am against touch screens.  I think the user interface is poor on a variety of levels, and until the software is open source I will not trust them.

    But if we are going to use this as a talking point let's have complete information.

    Live Free or Die-words to live by

    by ForFreedom on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:52:35 AM PDT

    •  Touch screens are evil (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      When I fly I usually use an e-ticket and a self-service automat for checking in.

      Those self-service automats use a touch screen from hell. Just typing in the ticket number correctly takes some effort. For instance, when you touch the screen you have to make sure your finger is at a right angle to the screen. If you are even slightly off, you'll get a wrong number even if your finger touches the screen at the correct point.

      I can very well imagine that a similar technical problem is behind the voting machine problem.

    •  go to the eirs site he links to (0+ / 0-)

      compile the results. let us know.

      When I looked at it about a year or so ago I think I saw one instance - maybe two of people complaining in the other direction.

      no snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible

      by biscobosco on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:23:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slouise217, vcmvo2

        And you seem to have missed my point entirely.

        While the complaints of switching Kerry/Bush outnumber the complaints of Bush/Kerry switching by a significant margin-certainly more than enough to justify substantial concern-the diarist made no mention of this.

        We must stick to the truth when relating this kind of information.  Not just because it is the right thing to do, but becuase not doing it leaves chinks in the armor for attack by the republicans.  They have happily trotted out statistically reversed information on many occasions, and have gotten awa with it.  The only way to fight this is to put all the correct information out there up front, so they never have a chance to spin it.

        Live Free or Die-words to live by

        by ForFreedom on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:06:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I read in Mark Crispin (15+ / 0-)

    Miller's book "Fooled Again" that the American aversion to discussing the election malfesance amounts to a "pathology."  Dems are so afraid of being labeled "sore losers" as Gore was when he (rightfully) fought the Florida results in 2000 that we dismiss the mountain of evidence of election fraud out-of-hand.

    It's about time that we incorporate the work of Rep. Conyers countless Journalists (including Georgia10) into the national political dialogue.  Elections are democracy.

    "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

    by Five of Diamonds on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:52:43 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this. (9+ / 0-)

    Far too many in this country seem to accept the 2004 outcome as being the truth when, as you point out, there are so many anomalies that one can only wonder what the real outcome was. Also, why Kerry didn't dispute or even suggest something was fishy?
    As for overvotes, I've always wondered if the folks who voted for Kerry, and their vote kept coming up Bush, and they had to vote over and over until it came up Kerry...well suppose those incorrect votes got counted for Bush anyway. So if you had to vote 4 times for Kerry until it came up right, then that would be 3 for Bush and one for Kerry. There were precincts in Ohio where Bush got thousands more votes than there were registered voters.
    I worry about November, and 2008. It won't matter how many of us get out to vote unless the votes are counted fairly. And far too many Americans seem unconcerned.

    All Truth is non-partisan

    by MA Liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:53:54 AM PDT

    •  Kerry, thanks for asking... (5+ / 0-)

      Exactly, if I were in Kerry's shoes and being the sore loser that I am, I would have screamed bloody murder until there was an investigation, at least, into the anomalies with the voting screens.

      What did he do... Nothing.  Accepted defeat and went back to the trough for another feeding.

      Not really any different than what happened to Gore in 2000, also in FL.  He actually presided over the process in which it was formally decided that he would lose the election.  

      I mean, if everything were on the up and up, Kerry would have called Bush out for wearing a wire during the 2nd presidential candidate's debate.  Bush couldn't memorize the talking points and got embarrassed by Kerry in round 1.  I could see the wire during the 2nd debate from my TV, yet Kerry didn't notice it or maybe forgot to mention it?

      As someone else mentioned here... glitches wouldn't favour one opponent over the other.  It would be approximately 50/50 for either candidate.  When all the "errors" fall into one candidate's backyard, they're not really "errors".

      •  No freaking kidding! (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran, neroden, Wbythebay, DonMahoney

        I mean, if everything were on the up and up, Kerry would have called Bush out for wearing a wire during the 2nd presidential candidate's debate.  Bush couldn't memorize the talking points and got embarrassed by Kerry in round 1.  I could see the wire during the 2nd debate from my TV, yet Kerry didn't notice it or maybe forgot to mention it?

        I soooo wanted Kerry to just walk over to Bush, shake his hand with his right hand and pat him on the back with the left. ("Wha...? George, there's something on your back! Mr. Moderator, I demand an investigation!")
        Damn what an opportunity he missed to show Bush up for the lying sack of crap he is (not to mention dumb).

        All Truth is non-partisan

        by MA Liberal on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:12:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  BINGO! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      viral, Wbythebay

      Ya got the first part absolutely, I'm sure that happened, and they made sure it did.  But as to Americans seeming unconcerned.  Well I don't think those that actually bothered to vote would be unconcerned if they actually KNEW what was going on.  This wasn't covered in any respect in the MSM.  

      What we need to do this time is push for turnout of all those people who refuse to vote so we can take back the house in a landslide so there would be NO QUESTION over who won.

      After the Rapture, we'll get all their stuff! Hummingbird's Blog

      by Hummingbird on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:51:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yawn (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Floja Roja, NearlyNormal

    There's no evidence for election fraud.  None.  I know this because so many people here have said so, over and over and over, so it must be true.

    •  There is no evidence (0+ / 0-)

      that in 2004, there was sufficient election fraud that changed results in the Presidential election.

      Maybe you should start listening to all those people - they actually know what they are talking about.

      And maybe they keep repeated the truth because it's the truth and other people keep repeating the false story that there WAS sufficient election fraud to change the results in the Presidential election.

      ...but not your own facts.

      by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:17:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Does it make you feel better to keep saying that? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wbythebay, dirtfarmer

        Because it's the fact that I DON'T KNOW that the election WASN'T stolen that really bothers me.  

        And in light of the Leon County Hack, where all it took was physical access to the memory cards to undetectably reverse the outcome of a test election, I would say that there is clear and compelling evidence that to carry out "sufficient election fraud that changed results in the Presidential election" would require the actions of no more than ONE PERSON.

        The only place this sort of fraud would show up is the exit polls, which just coincidentally had Kerry winning the election in a nationwide walk.

        Given the fact that Diebold's internal emails reveal they knew about this bug at least as far back as 2001, and yet here it is still present in their software in 2006. Fixing the bug would take adding an absolute value function call to the summation code loop -- potentially just typing "abs()" in one line of code.  At what point does incompetence become deliberate malice?

        But seriously, if repeating your "no evidence" mantra helps you sleep at night, more power to you.  Just don't expect me to believe you.

        •  It's FINE that you don't know (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          But yes, EVERY time someone says there's enough evidence that we can assert that the 2004 election was stolen, I am going to tell them that they are full of shit.

          And if YOU refuse to believe the facts, then that is YOUR problem.

          If YOU refuse to acknowledge the truth, then the whole site is poorer as a result.

          The facts are that there is no evidence that there was sufficient election fraud to change the election results for President.

          I only keep repeating the same facts when I am confronted with the same distortions and deceptions.

          And your LEAP to an unwarranted conclusion is the 3rd of the three things that a Conspiracy Theorist does to try to 'prove' his theory.

          The Leon County Hack has been overstated and misreported and debunked her on DailyKos before. The fact that ONE memory card was fucked with, and with that memory card fucked with, changes took place could happen if you allow a similar amount of outsider access to paper ballots too! And the fact that it COULD be done is NOT evidence that it WAS done.

          Why do BevBot trolls have such trouble with this simple fact? Evidence that something COULD happen is not evidence that it DID happen. And unless you have evidence that it DID happen, then you don't have evidence of any fraud.

          So, you fight it by saying fraud COULD HAVE happened.

          Which I say ALL the time.

          That's HOW you fight for different systems - by asserting what you KNOW is true - that fraud COULD happen. Because you don't know that fraud DID happen!

          And just to show how little you really DO know on this subject, you repeat the false talking points about the exit polls. The exit polls were NOT all that far off - it was the misinterpretation of the early morning exit polls, with raw data that should not have been interpreted without other information, yet it was.

          ...but not your own facts.

          by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:59:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hey, this is news to me (0+ / 0-)

            The Leon County Hack has been overstated and misreported and debunked her on DailyKos before.

            This is news to me, link it up.

            Of course, when you follow it up with something so wonderfully, brutally retarded as...

            The fact that ONE memory card was fucked with

            ...just doesn't bode well for your analytical faculties.  The fact that the proof of concept works AT ALL is the problem.

            And since you're such a pedantic twit:

            But yes, EVERY time someone says there's enough evidence that we can assert that the 2004 election was stolen, I am going to tell them that they are full of shit.

            Did I say that there was enough evidence to say that the 2004 election was stolen?  No I did not, you mendacious irritant, I snarked that there was no evidence of election fraud. But we can't have our own facts now, can we?

  •  Touchscreens must (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    otto, NearlyNormal

    be calibrated at the beginning of the day.  In many cases, the calibration is off (I'd guess that it's usually accidental, but I'm sure there are places where it's been done intentionally).  This would usually affect the edges of the box you're supposed to touch, and it would affect every choice on the ballot, though it wouldn't affect them in the same way.

    For instance, if you have the following choices, in this order:

    Libertarian Kook

    And the calibration is skewed downward, when you pressed the top of Bush, nothing would happen, so you'd move your finger.  When you pressed the top of Kerry, you'd get Bush.  When you pressed the top of Libertarian Kook, you'd get Kerry, but relatively few people would do that.

    I believe it's possible that votes could be misassigned at other stages.  I'm just pointing out one way this happens.

    •  Yeah (0+ / 0-)

      I didn't really think about this before, but the screen itself is set up to record whatever place you touch on the screen.  

    •  My thought is (0+ / 0-)

      ...why have touch screens at all. When i voted here MI I was given a form and filled it myself. Somethings shouldnt be automated to a large is one of them.. automate the counting process via optical scanners or what ever.. but not use touchscreen or things like that, since you cannot see what is realyl going on..

      Keep it Simple... I just think its part laziness on the govt part to actually DO some hard work to fix the problems, alot of things are just slapped together or done half assed.

      •  Just to be clear (0+ / 0-)

        Governments don't build these touch-screens.  Private and publically-held corporations do.  If you want to talk about half-assed of slapped together, direct your criticism at those who merit it.

        •  heh (0+ / 0-)

          the done half assed and slapped together part is an apt description of some the laws that has been passed in the past decade. Laws that created more problems than solved.

          Dont understand why your so quick to assume that i equating the govt with the touch screens.. as far as i  concered, i was talking about two different things

  •  what to do about it? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jacob wi, NearlyNormal

    ok, i agree. election fraud went down.

    while i appreciate you posting this diary, there is nothing in it that suggests anything to do about the problem...


  •  Where is the fucking legal fund? (5+ / 0-)

    Unless I don't know something, why are there not coordinated lawsuits in every state of this nation over this? Backed by the best lawyers out there? Can someone PLEASE tell me where I can donate large sums of my own money to an honorable, honest legal team that is ready to play hardball on this?!??!?!?!?!

    •  Don't know of any which is organized yet, but... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Try contacting someone at VoteTrustUSA ( or one of the similar organizations about organizing such a fund.  They will hopefully be able to point you to people who know how to organize such a fund, and maybe even a few lawyers to get you started. And they'll certainly be able to hook you up with some people who can get an online donation system set up once you've got started.

  •  All the 'Yay, the media is awake now' stuff (6+ / 0-)

    is bullshit until they start reporting this. And reporting this. And reporting this. This is 100 times more important than how Bush screwed up the Katrina response, who was tied to Jack Abramhoff, whether Turdblossom is going to be indicted, or how many Republican paragons of virtue are about to be revealed as frickin' whoremongers. This is about whether there will still be a functioning republic here within 20 years.

    -6.88, -2.97 All actions -- especially votes -- have consequences.

    by bwintx on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:08:07 AM PDT

  •  I tell you what (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melo, UniC

    With each passing day and each fresh, many-tentacled crime (a bloody prostitution ring, fer cryin' out loud!), I am more and more apt to believe the sub-Paulie Walnuts thugs who call themselves the Republican party in this country are capable of anything.

    Something's happening here today -- a show of strength with your boys' brigade. Paul Weller

    by jamfan on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:10:44 AM PDT

  •  glitches are 50-50. fraud is lop-sided. (9+ / 0-)

    Of all the stats done on the 2004 election, I don't recall anyone trying to statistically analyze the chance that so many glitches would go in 1 direction.

    At the time, I remember hearing one of the people who ran a voting problem hotline, and she said (on Randi Rhodes, I think) that 19 out of 20 flips went from Kerry to Bush, and 1 out of 20 (or less) went from Bush to Kerry. What are the chances you can flip a coin 20 times, and get 'heads' 19 times?

    Bush lied to start a war. Now he wants absolute power as the "War President." We're in deep shit.

    by bejammin075 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:13:09 AM PDT

  •  ALL of George W Bush's APPOINTMENTS, (9+ / 0-)

    including and especially the Supreme Court, have been and will be illegitimate, and ought to be reversed by WE The People.

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:17:35 AM PDT

  •  VIDEO YOUR VOTE!!! (7+ / 0-)

    This is easy.

    Anyone who votes on a touch screen should bring a small video camera. If someone could catch a machine switching it would make great TV.

    (I actually don't know if video can catch an LCD screen, any video geeks know?)

    Tracking energy and transportation news.

    by joel3000 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:21:20 AM PDT

    •  you sir are a genius. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
    •  from ne plus ultra's post upthread (0+ / 0-)

      The protection of the secret ballot is absolute.  Otherwise, your employer, for instance, could ask you to tape yourself and then show him to prove that you voted for the right person.

      •  This is unidirectional, like self-incrimination (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TaraIst, neroden, dannyinla

        The Chicago machine notwithstanding, no one else can require you to reveal your vote or watch (or record) your vote without your knowledge or consent. But you are certainly allowed to do it yourself, if you so choose.

        They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Franklin

        by carolita on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:58:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So break the law! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Give me a break.  If you get video of voting fraud, I don't think the media will turn it down because you broke the law to get it.  Just be sure you have many, many copies of the video in different places.  

        "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

        by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:31:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  i mentioned that a few comments above (0+ / 0-)

      the threat alone would certainly cause diebold to think twice about malicious activity in the face of tangible evidence.  

      of course, i'm sure programmers can get around that if they desired.

      Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. - Samuel Johnson

      by sedrunsic on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:55:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Question (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GrainofSand, retired, thecoolmacdude

    Is there a law against videotaping my own voting? Can I walk into a voting booth and take video of the touchscreens as I vote? If we get an army of people doing this, I'd bet we'd get some video of some shenanigans. The problem right now is that if it ain't on film it's all in our heads.

    •  That assumes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      that to steal votes, the programmers would need to have the Diebold machine show the theft.

      In reality, this is not the case.  It would be just as simple to have the machine record Kerry votes as votes for Bush, but wrongly show the voter that it is recorded for Kerry.

      Not to say that video evidence wouldn't be useful, but we should be careful in how we present it.

      "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

      by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:42:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  screen should say Bush (0+ / 0-)

        I dunno. It seems to me safer for the machines to be calibrated "wrong," so Kerry votes come up as Bush than to have code in the machine that switches votes.

        A calibration error is innocent and can be apologized for as an accident, actually having vote switching code in the machine would show criminal intent.

        This could also make for a problem with paper receipts.
        Voters shouldn't have to assert themselves to the poll workers in order to get their votes counted correctly.

        Tracking energy and transportation news.

        by joel3000 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:58:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Crap, I thought this was about prostitution (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    seanleckey, dannyinla

    Um, unless someone already made that joke.

  •  If These Truly Were Mistakes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    UniC, GrainofSand

    then Kerry would have benefitted from half of the "anomalies". When only one side benefits, as in Bush and Martinez, then we have fraud.

    Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

    by dpc on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:26:36 AM PDT

  •  Anecdotal only? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    seanleckey, slouise217, imabluemerkin

    I may be missing something and didn't read every vote flip anecdote but is there hard evidence of this yet?

    That seems to be the problem with making headway... I personally KNOW, being a techie and from reading the Leon county analysis story, that something akin to a coup has happened with electronic voting... something that should have American patriots out in the streets screaming for someone's head.

    (and I realize that paperless voting might preclude the hard evidence.)

  •  Is there anything new here? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2, jacob wi

    Why is this at the top of the recommended list?

    A link to an article from over a year ago?


    •  Newsworthy (8+ / 0-)

      The difference between DailyKos and the Daily News is that we're not tied to rigid definitions of what constitutes news, e.g., there has to be some incremental new development to make an item worth publishing. If we were tied to journalism school notions of what's news, stories like whether Bush lied us into war, authorized illegal wiretapping or whether climate change poses a threat to survival could only be brought up here if something juicy developed in the last few hours. I like the think the standard of urgent-to-the-survival-of-democracy-and-or-humanity trumps one of newsworthiness.

      •  Besides (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        neroden, Wbythebay, Jiminy Cricket

        I appreciate having my attention called to that list of reports of fraudulent vote tallying. I had never seen it.

      •  Yes, but (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2, jacob wi, Rick Oliver, neroden

        Yes, but this seems like a cut and paste job of stuff exactly as it was a year ago.

        There have been an ongoing developments in the past year. What's next? What is this new offering?

        Dailykos is not "news", but it shouldn't be a random posting of lists found on the interwebs. Not journalists but users should have the integrity to reference, verify, not claim others work as their own and to offer something the progressive/Democratic community might be interested in (besides an opportunity for everyone to say "yeah man").

        If we were tied to journalism school notions of what's news, stories like whether Bush lied us into war, authorized illegal wiretapping or whether climate change poses a threat to survival could only be brought up here if something juicy developed in the last few hours.

        There are constantly new developments and different takes on those issues, as well as the voting issue.

        Personally, I don't care for "newsflashes" on kos anyway, but that's another more meta-y issue.

        •  That makes sense (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          seanleckey, neroden, Wbythebay

          I see your point. A diary that moves things along is preferable to one that  just hits the old buttons and leads nowhere. We value thought and analysis over agitation. Still, it serves us to keep this issue live one way or another and even when this issue of what belongs in a diary, not to make the best the enemy of the good.

        •  Yes, they SHOULD not post old news (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          seanleckey, mattes

          This list appears to be propaganda - it's not news - it's an old story wrapped up as news.

          Mark Crispin's work is newish, and that is news to most people likely. But the list is not news.

          Hopefully he made the diary so that he could inform people about the new book by Crispin, and not this old list, but almost all of the diary comments are about the list.

          ...but not your own facts.

          by slouise217 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:27:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  this makes me sick nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    UniC, majcmb1

    The writing on the wall has run out of wall. Now we're writing on the floor.

    by marjo on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:29:25 AM PDT

  •  I'm now wondering why when I (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattes, imabluemerkin

    Go to my Diebold ATM and select to take out $100 it doesn't just give me $80? The really bad thing about the new Diebold ATM's here in Calif is when you touch the screen it makes a really loud noise, which is awful. The customer becomes a target for any robbers that might be hanging out around the machines, kinda like a heads up..someone is over taking cash out of the ATM machine. I have stopped going for cash late at night. PS. Can't wait till Jeb Bush is out of the Gov's office in Fla. History will not treat either of them well, especially with the Bush v Gore recount from 2000. That is the fishiest looking thing ever. His bro just happens to be the Governor of the State that decided the election and the vote counting was STOPPED.

    "The Truth is far more powerful than any weapon of mass destruction." -Gandhi

    by Chamonix on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:30:05 AM PDT

    •  The vote REcounting was stopped by SCOTUS. n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bob Love, mattes

      Two Thousand Three Hundred and Ninety-two . . . How Many More?

      by Wbythebay on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:21:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes, but it was a States rights issue (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Jeb was the puppet master for Katherine Harris. If they would have played by the states rules and what the Supreme Court of Florida Ruled the recount would have continued and we would have seen who really won Florida. Clearly Gore got the Popular vote by almost a million votes, as I said History will not look upon the entire 8 year of the Bush Whitehouse well at all, including the mess that was Election 2000 and the SCOTUS shitty decision to stop counting the votes and appoint Bush as President. That's all.

        "The Truth is far more powerful than any weapon of mass destruction." -Gandhi

        by Chamonix on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 04:39:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Still think (9+ / 0-)

    you live in a Democracy?

    •  Hahahaha, no... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, majcmb1, dirtfarmer

      I haven't believed that line of bullshit for quite a while now.

      There will never be another clean election of any consequence in this country until the Revolution. Both parties tolerate the gerrymandering and rigged elections. They're owned lock, stock and barrel by the war economy.

      America deserves this bi-partisan gang of feckless, blood-stained crooks.

      Posting here is an outlet, but ultimately it feels like howling in a hurricane. The peer pressure not to appear like a member of the tin-foil brigade is overwhelming to the status-conscious and normalcy-at-any cost crowd, and that goes as much for democrats as rethuglicans. "Responsible" people will always go along to get along . . .even after everyone registered on dailykos is rendered off on rail cars.

      So remember, as long as enough of the "center" is making enough money, everything else is irrelevent. Democracy? Who cares? What's on "American Idol?"

    •  Nah, I think somebody dug up Stalin (0+ / 0-)

      and he's doin' the countin' now.

  •  while I agree that.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Subterranean, vcmvo2

    it would not be shocking if Bush cheated we also need to keep in mind the fact that a lot of people probably truly messed up.  I use to work in an on campus computer lab and the amount of ridiculousness people would report on a daily basis was insane.... and these were all kids pursuing a college degree.

    So an investigation isnt a bad thing but basing that off of what individuals reported is probably not the best idea.  Just look at how often eye witness reports are completely wrong even though the person giving the account truly believes what happened... I think its called subjective reality.

    Again I am not saying it didnt happen but I am just pointing out personal accounts are often wrong despite people being 100% honest in their own minds.

    "Global deaths due to hunger in one year= 8,760,000"

    by Sausalito on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:34:32 AM PDT

    •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

      As a computer literate person, I'm always helping people with computers, both at work and with friends and acquaintances.  I never cease to be amazed at how difficult computers are for many people.  Even among educated persons, using a computer is often an intimidating chore.  They are afraid of doing "the wrong thing" and thus will not even try to solve any problems on their own.  It's pathetic.  

      At dkos, I'm sure my computer expertise is average, or maybe even below average, so most Kossacks surely know what I'm talking about.

      You put old people in front of a computer screen, and they freak.  Not a good thing at voting time.  An already stressful situation breaks into panic.  They press anything, get an unexpected result, and always say they did everything right (while fervently hoping the poll tech doesn't discover they "broke" the machine until they leave).  

      Still, I can think of no reason that Bush voters would be more computer-literate than Kerry voters.  If anything, I'd expect the opposite to be true.  In any event, we should see a more even distribution of voting anomaly reports, with some in Kerry's favor, some in Bush's favor.  Instead, 99% are in Bush's favor.  

      If this isn't evidence of foul play, then I don't know what is.  

      "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

      by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:04:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    Recommended by:
    UniC, SherriG, Wbythebay

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:35:17 AM PDT

  •  I commented on this topic November (14+ / 0-)

    3, 2004. Which was around the time I joined DailyKos  for support.
    My story:
    After the 2000 election I decided to become a poll worker as I was sure something was amiss. I went to my Pinellas county Elections Office and Volunteered. At first I was the Assistant Clerk in my precinct, then they made me Machine Manager. Machine Managers have to learn everything about the Voting machines. We have to be able to take them down, put them up, open and close them according to specific rules and checklists, assist voters without looking at their screens, etc. I knew the Sequoia machines inside and out and I really did have a good feeling about them at 7:00 am on November 2, 2004.
    I wanted to be the first person at my precinct to cast a vote for John Kerry. So I did.
    I touched John Kerry's name once....George Bush came up. I thought I'd just had a case of fat fingers and tried again. George Bush came up. It took until the third time to actually have my ballot come up as John Kerry.
    Now, all day long I assisted folks who were not accustomed, particularly elderly folks, to using ATM-like machines. Some folks were confused, others, frankly, intimidated. I know they did not verify their votes - they were nervous and just wanted the experience over with. I had one woman tell me "I just want to go home". The experience was so new and   it terrified her. I know it's difficult to believe for we computer literate folks but there are people out there who have never used an ATM or computer.
    So that is my story. I know this really happened and  I know the machines worked just fine prior to election day.

    "Democrats win when people think"...Bill Clinton

    by Limabean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:35:36 AM PDT

  •  So (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    UniC, A Rational Being, SherriG, Wbythebay

    does this mean that Bush isnt our President and shouldnt be living in the White House. Is this all a bad dream?  can someone make him go away?

  •  The machines (0+ / 0-)

    were tested before voting started?  Then started acting up?

    •  No...they were calibrated, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattes, Wbythebay

      opened, set up, checked to ensure they started with zero votes...but prior to that we had several hours of mandatory training on the same machines and I have never seen that occur before. We also have a "demonstration" machine on site for folks who would like to learn how to use the machines and it never happened there when I was giving a demo.

      "Democrats win when people think"...Bill Clinton

      by Limabean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:28:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  step by step in case of wonkiness (5+ / 0-)

    Need to print out a bunch of "what to do in case your screen says one thing vs the other" and get them distributed maybe?

    If you notice:
    Get the election observer into the booth.
    Point it out.
    Have them sign something that says they witnessed the malfunction.

    That way sawgrass727's case (up-thread) where he saw something that he thought was corrected he could have concrete proof that something was amiss.

  •  steps to take, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    we need a complete reveiw of the existing rules, when something like that happpens, what is the "proper" way to record it.

  •  When I saw the title . . . (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cryptochrome, kittania, DJShay

    Pressed "KERRY" got "BUSH" - Literally

    For a minute, I feared that perhaps it was about a Democrat being caught up in Hookergate!

    Hungry? Try Left-Over! Because some news is better served hot the next day!

    by seenos on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:56:52 AM PDT

  •  Can you bring cameras into the voting booths (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, mattes

    Honestly, we need photo documentation of this.

    I vote absentee so I don't know poll procedures.

    •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      But only your own booth, only your own vote, only your choice. (You can, of course, loan your camera to others.) Anyone can choose to reveal his vote, but no one can be compelled to do so, either by force or deceit.

      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Franklin

      by carolita on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:12:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If the Dems take back the Senate and House.... (0+ / 0-)

    in November, what are the chances they will open an investigation into this?

  •  Wheres DiHinMi? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    biscobosco, corvo, neroden, Wbythebay

    He should be along any second to lambast this diary.

    Unless that is, he went and got a life recently.

  •  No 1 problem that needs to be fixed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    neroden, carolita, Wbythebay

    Why should I vote if my vote a) doesn't count, b)my vote is subverted c)my vote is corrupted by Diebold.

    Oregon has the mail in ballot and it is a traceable system.  No chads, no phony computer machine, just a piece of paper marked with whom you wish to vote for.

    The shrub needs to be pulled he is terrifying

    by libbie on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:05:04 AM PDT

  •  If citizens had complaints against the IRS (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Don't you think that if there were a lot of complaints about the IRS not giving the appropriate refund there would be an audit?  

    Can't we at least agree that when you have numerous similiar complaints of a government function, it should be audited?

  •  Candidate in 2008 will need to warn the public (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, neroden

    About watching for these irregularities and reporting them.

    That'll stir things up for election day!

  •  ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, Nonie3234, Wbythebay

    it's only tinfoil till enough people realize they are being wrapped in tinfoil and placed into the oven.

    Go [hunt] yourself, Mr. Cheney

    by Iconoclast421 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:17:25 AM PDT

  •  I have no doubt that the election was stolen (0+ / 0-)

    ...and thank God it was. Can anyone imagine Kerry inheriting Junior's mess, with the corrupt Rethug Congress we have now?

    That would have probably meant the end of the Democratic Party, Jeb would have run in 2008 and we would be off to commit more war crimes and destroy the New Deal totally.

    We all see what has happened instead. You can count on few things in this old world, but Karma is one of them.

    The more arrogant and swaggering one is, the bigger the Karmic smackdown, and this one is going to be a lalapaloosa.

    The GOP isn't going to know what hit it in 2006.

    The Democrats had better take a lesson, because if they do not do what is right, they will be next.

    Count on it!

    Read the Declaration of Independence, if it has been awhile since you've read it.

    by TDW on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:29:24 AM PDT

    •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bob Love, corvo

      The GOP isn't going to know what hit it in 2006.

      You're right.

      And the fix will ensure that nobody else will either.

    •  I've wondered the same thing (0+ / 0-)

      If Kerry were elected, the GOP and media would both be pumping the country full of propaganda to ensure it was an accepted FACT that we lost Iraq because of Kerry.  The GOP congress would hog-tie Kerry so that he could get absolutely NOTHING done - I mean not a single bill.  

      Even worse, what if Kerry governed the way he ran his campaign?  I mean, it wasn't the stroke of genius that let the swift boaters smear and defame Kerry into oblivion, for TWO WEEKS without so much as a peep from Kerry.  What if this same management style brought disaster to a Kerry presidency?  Dems would be fucked, and in '08 Kerry would be stepping aside for Jeb to take over.

      In many ways, we are damn lucky that Kerry didn't win.

      "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

      by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:20:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  and the winner is? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    seanleckey, neroden

    I asked a lawyer once about theft... he said the principle of the law is that theft of a small thing (or one vote) is as much a crime as theft of a large thing (a whole county's votes).... in principle theft of just one vote skews the result and invalidates the whole vote....

    so where is the law?  it seems to me that if just one voter's vote has been stolen, that voter has a case against the system....

    has any one citizen brought suit based on their stolen vote?

    sorry if this seems retrouvé, but I was out of the country when this happened....

    Ron Suskind is a great writer. I'm not him.

    by suskind on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:34:31 AM PDT

  •  Press 'BUSH' get 'KERRY' (6+ / 0-)

    It also happened the other way around. On the local news in Albuquerque, NM, there were reports of it happening both ways during early voting with voting machines.

    This diary lists mostly Kerry->Bush incidents, but it did happen the other way around too (and I did notice one Bush->Kerry incident listed in this diary too).

    It would appear that some voting machines contain crappy software. Being a software engineer, I have seen some amazingly crappy software being sold (no, not mine or my company's ;-)), but it's still sad. Voting machines should be subjected to rigorous testing.

    I do not have my own blog.

    by Frank on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:35:10 AM PDT

  •  Compared to registration fraud, this is trivial! (6+ / 0-)

    I suspect there are not very many intelligent observers who would claim that there is no problem with electronic voting and tabulating machines that do not leave paper trails, but this problem is trivial compared to the massive voter registration fraud the Rethugs have been, and ARE CURRENTLY ENGAGED IN. Why screw around with the voting machines when you can get 10s of thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of Democratic voters disqualified from voting BEFORE THE ELECTION?

    How are they doing this? By 'purging' the voter rolls under the guise of removing felons, dead people, and people who have moved to other jurisdictions. Remember JEB's purging of the voter rolls just before the 2000 election in Florida? Remember the post-election fight in Washington state where the Rethugs filed a wholesale challenge to Democratic voters from King County? How many other places did this happen without questioning from either Dems or the press?

    Well, guess what? It is happening RIGHT NOW in states like Ohio and California and I don't know where else. If these attempts are successful, many MILLIONS OF DEMS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO VOTE IN NOVEMBER! Add to this the well-known effort by the Rethugs to toss Dem voter registration forms or modify their addresses, especially on college campuses and in housing/condo developments for seniors. These people will go to the polls and discover that they are ineligible to vote.

    I'm not denying that the Diebold machines are a threat, but voter registration fraud is a much greater threat, IMHO. If Dems do not get a handle on this and stop the Rethug Secretaries of State from 'purging' activities, they will discover in November that a significant percentage of probable Dem voters in these states WILL NOT BE ABLE TO VOTE.

    •  Very good point (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      viral, neroden, Wbythebay

      Also the registration fraud is more easily provable/prosecutable, and little has been done to take advantage of the many, many violations of the Voting Rights act.

      Nevertheless, our present system is not TRANSPARENT and VERIFIABLE. Both the electronic voting and the registration fraud are big problems.

      Thanks for bringing this up. I would urge you to do a diary on it or point to one already done if you can find with an advanced Google search of or whatever.


      Is your Congressional representative supporting Conyers' Health-Care Reform Bill?

      by We hold these truths on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:03:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yep. It's huge. (4+ / 0-)

      To me the alarming thing is that there is virtually no National dialogue on the issue of Election Fraud... at all.

      Why hasn't Election Fraud been the Number One issue on the minds of the Democrats? What do they expect to happen later this year... the Repubs are going to play nice with their highly impeachable President just sitting there? It's going to be a bloodbath.

      This is a good little study by Dennis Loo of Cal Poly Pomona;

      Keep fightin'.

      •  Note that discussion of this vital issue (0+ / 0-)

        is discouraged on this site and is in fact officially a bannable offense. The blind intransigence of the left on this issue has in fact been even worse in the blogosphere.

        What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? unknown

        by moon in the house of moe on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 08:59:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  They can do more with voting machine fraud. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Subterranean, AlanF

      It's perfectly straightforward, for instance, to program the Diebold machines to swap all the "yes" and "no" votes for the "Reform Ohio Now" referenda, without telling the voter.  And some people are suspicious that that's exactly what happened with some of them, because the "yes" percentages were startlingly like the predicted "no" percentages.

      At least if people are kicked off the rolls, they FIND OUT that they've been disenfranchised.  I agree that it's a big problem, but it is certainly secondary in danger to the unverifiable automatic-election-theft devices currently being hawked.  If millions of people are kicked off the rolls, millions of people will protest.  If millions of people have their votes silently changed by the machines, they'll never even know, so they won't protest.

      The frightening thing about electronic voting machine fraud is that the stuff listed in the above diary is just the tip of the iceberg: the stuff which you can actually notice at the time, as opposed to the silent vote-count changing which is the really big danger.

    •  Oh man - you GOTTA read this article: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      In his new book, "Conned: How Millions of Americans Went to Prison, Lost the Vote, and Helped Send George W. Bush to the White House," award-winning journalist Sasha Abramsky takes us on a journey across the nation, documenting through personal interviews of people in prison, former prisoners, state legislators and advocates how felon disfranchisement laws fundamentally undermine America's democratic ideals.

      Today, nearly 5 million Americans are disfranchised from the right to vote either because they are in prison, on parole or probation, or because they live in a state that extends disfranchisement beyond the end of one's sentence. Racial, ethnic and economic disparities in the criminal justice system, and the "war on drugs" have resulted in the most severe impact hitting communities of color. Where African-Americans comprise only 12.2 percent of the population and 13 percent of drug users, they make up 38 percent of those arrested for drug offenses and 59 percent of those convicted of drug offenses, causing critics to call the war on drugs the "New Jim Crow." Nationally, an estimated 13 percent of African-American men are unable to vote because of a felony conviction. That's seven times the national average.

      The United States is the only "democracy" in which people who have served their sentences can still lose their right to vote.

      Here is an exerpt from the book:

      If a blogger blogs, and nothing changes, did that blogger actually make a blog?

      ---my Dad

      by Nonie3234 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 01:35:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    IF heads are not on fire amongst the dems for the 2006 campaign, they should be!  Thank you for ths documentation on a web site that frequently and collectively feigns indifference to the issue.  

  •  Have there been any reports of the opposite? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Out of curiosity, have there been any reports of the opposite hapening?  I'd kill for some statistics on this.  That's the only way we'll ever know whether it's random errors or something more insidious.  At present, I'm inclined to believe this is merely incompetance on the part of Diebold programmers, but if it really does end up lopsidedly favoring Bush, there'd be only one reasonable conclusion to arrive at. ;)

    •  I followed many news sources carefully (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Subterranean, Elise, corvo

      and read of thousands of complaints of votes being changed from Kerry to Bush but only one mention of the opposite happening - a woman in NM who says she observed her Bush vote turning to Kerry.  

      This is of course merely one person's gleaning of news sources, but it agrees with the observations of others who were likewise scanning the news for such reports, and certainly indicates to me that fraud was almost certainly the cause, not mere programming error.  

      Once you look into who owns Diebold, who manages it and who they hire, the picture becomes much clearer; these 3 categories include a freakishly high number of Republican activists and convicted criminals (often both).

      "... Just so long as I'm the dictator." - GWB, 12/18/00

      by Bob Love on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 01:26:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, Wbythebay

    It's really a pity that people who post these diaries don't often point to the websites of the election integrity organizations which you can join to help try to stop these problems.  VoteTrustUSA is a website with a national focus, but its site includes links to a large number of local organizations.  I'm active in mine; how about you?

    The website also includes literature and talking points which you can use when convincing your election commissioners, state legislators, or whoever, that this stuff matters.  More such information is at and

  •  Random? (0+ / 0-)

    Does anyone have information on the reverse of these "malfunctions?"  Are there Bush voters or poll workers who report that someone was being forced by the machine to vote for Kerry?  If this were a random series of equipment malfunctions, I would expect that there would be reports of similar problems from the other side.    

  •  Back Stage (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nancelot, Wbythebay

    I think this is a very serious problem, I have a limited amount of programming experience, however anyone who's done even the simplest programming can tell you that most of the "work" is done behind the scenes with internal variables and functions, and never shows up on the screen.  I can only think of two reasons for vote-switching to show up on the screens, (1)voter error, (2)sloppy programming/calibration.

    This does bring up a whole host of other possible issues however.  Such as how can you be sure that the people who were "able to correct" voting errors were actually able to correct their vote and not simply get a screen telling them it was fixed?  Or how many votes were switched without it ever showing on the screen?  And how can you be sure that your vote isn't changed after the confirmation screen?  In theory, even switching individual votes is not needed... just take the number of voters that voted, choose some # larger than 50% for candidate 'A' set the rest to candidate 'B'.

    I personally do not trust machines to record my vote at all.  I would be slightly happier if I could walk away from a polling place with a paper receipt in my hand, though I know even that is taking the whole process with a large grain of salt.

    •  Trusty machines exist (0+ / 0-)
      I can understand your apprehension about placing your trust in a machine to record your vote.

      However, since ATM's were first used I have been using them and have never had a problem other than walking up to the machine and finding out that it was out of order. ATM's have always given me the correct amount of cash withdrawal and have always given me credit for the exact amount of deposit. Plus, I have always had the availability of a paper receipt verifying the transaction.

      Every time I have ordered anything from MacDonalds, I have been given a receipt which provides an amazing amount of information regarding my purchase, no matter how small the purchase may have been. If MacDonald's can do this and still make money from $1. hamburgers, the United States of America can do it and the voters should be able to feel secure that their vote was recorded properly.

      I, therefore, propose that voting by ATM or at MacDonalds be an option at the next election. At least we will have a receipt for our vote.    

      The lunatics are destroying the asylum. (-6.25,-5.13)

      by Skylor on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 06:34:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ATM is bad analogy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moon in the house of moe

        ATMs deal in money, which is tracked by both the bank and the customer.  Put simply, the proof of an honest ATM transaction is in the cash it gives, and the account statements you receive and use to balance out your account activity.  

        If ATMs started behaving dishonestly, every customer that got screwed would know it.  

        Unlike a bank customer, a voter has no way to measure the veracity of his vote.  None.  A paper receipt is meaningless, since the machine could simply count your vote for Bush and print out a receipt saying "Kerry".  A confirmation screen dialogue is even more circumventable.  The voting machine could conceivably report any results the programmer desires, and as long as those results don't wildly deviate from polling data, they will be accepted.  Even if they are suspect, there is no way to evaluate the authenticity.  

        The programming code is patented, so nobody can look at it.  After the code is certified, the owners can still get away with installing software patches.  And if any malicious code were inserted, it could easily delete itself after doing the deed, so that the machine would look normal to prying eyes.

        I've long since concluded that the ONLY reason anyone would want to use computerized voting machines is if they want to steal elections.  There is no other explanation.  The more reliable alternatives are also more simple and less expensive.  

        What Diebold et. al. have essentially done is build a back door into every computerized polling place. Each back door leads to a tunnel, all of which converge to a central room, controlled by the right wing fanatics who run these voting machine companies.  What is most amazing to me is that Americans willingly went along with this diabolical plot.  If it were in a movie, you wouldn't believe it.  

        "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

        by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:58:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Conyers' Report (4+ / 0-)

    J. Conyers' What Went Wrong In Ohio

    (My computer crashing  Sorry if poor formatting.


    Is your Congressional representative supporting Conyers' Health-Care Reform Bill?

    by We hold these truths on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:12:17 AM PDT

  •  Go back to paper until the machines pass tests (5+ / 0-)

    These are companies that make ATMs. Do we hear about asking for a checking account balance and getting some one else's balance? Do we hear about problems with ATMs? In my neck of the woods sometimes ATMs jam, sometimes they get ripped off, and sometimes people using them don't get their deposit slip. I haven't heard about tech problems. Maybe there are more instances out there I have not heard about, yet.

    I used to work in IT, my husband is a software architect for a very large database company, in the back up/recovery area. Making voting machines infalable should not be rocket science, and there should be no excuses for 'bugs'.

    There is a problem with the open source requirement - no company wants to reveal how they make their product secure. Cheap programmers and stupid inventions for open sourcing could be the problem. However there is no excuse for letting these boxes get any where near the marketplace. After all, if we can't trust Diebold or ESS with our votes, should we trust their ATMs with our money?

    Short form: there are no excuses for voting machine bugs, and IMO we should revert to paper until all voting machines pass quality benchmarks.

    What the President says is executive privilege is nothing but executive poppycock. -Sam Ervin

    by sailmaker on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:20:00 AM PDT

    •  Open source (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Subterranean, dirtfarmer

      suggests that the programmers would likely not be working for a company. It also suggests that they would eliminate security risks that could be exploited by simply examining the software or hardware.

      Must read: MLKJ's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." It will surprise you.

      by AlanF on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:17:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Secret code? (0+ / 0-)

      There is no excuse for keeping the code secret.  Security through obscurity is not a reliable method of security - it is much more secure to make the code open source, and let thousands of programmers examine it for weaknesses.

      Furthermore, the tasks done by these voting machines are extremely simple.  The idea that the code holds "trade secrets" is absurd.  It's like saying your calculator holds "trade secrets."  Any first year programming student could write code that does the same thing as these Diebold machines, and it would probably do it more securely.  

      "Birds...scream at the top of their lungs every morning at daybreak to warn us all of the truth...but sadly we don't speak bird." ~Kurt Cobain, Journals

      by Subterranean on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:08:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you think Kerry deserves another chance (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AlanF, Nonie3234, neroden, Wbythebay

    "Within hours Kerry's office released a statement catagorically denying he had the conversation with me.
    I was flabbergasted, here was a guy that TOLD me that he thinks the race was stolen and he deplored the fact that his fellow democrats in Washington are in denial on the subject. As soon as I told the story publically, he immeadidatly snapped back into that same posture of denial."
    -Crispen Miller

    "I don't wanna listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore!" -Howard Dean

    by astronautagogo on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:20:27 AM PDT

  •  Florida 2002 - How Jeb Bush stole his 2nd term (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annefrank, Wbythebay

    They got McBride to beat Reno in the Democratic primary so that they could easily beat McBride in November.

  •  I had a friend who's active in Broward... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Love, Wbythebay, dirtfarmer

    look at this one.  I knew that he'd be esp interested since he's an atty in Deerfield, where a number of the irregularities occurred.  

    He was disturbed by the high # of irregularities.  He still has a hard time dealing w/ it conceptually, however.  He wondered how the GOP could get away w/ it in a Dem-dominated county like Broward.

    We have a large perception barrier that we still need to surmount.  People have been conditioned to believe that, whatever flaws exist in our system, the casting and counting of ballots is reasonably fair and accurate.  The possibility of wholesale electronic theft is outside their realm of prior belief.

    I have no problem w/ this perception barrier.  I know that the 2000 election was stolen.  Once one no longer believes in the fundamental fairness of our electoral process, the possibility of electronic theft becomes well inside the realm of belief.

    Diaries like this one are essential to the core mission of this site, and it is good to see that this one reached the top of the list.  The sheer volume of irregularities in a Dem county shakes people out of their sense of complacency.  Thank you for perfroming a valuable public service.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:41:04 AM PDT

    •  Didn't know Broward was a Dem stronghold. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I just picked the State with the largest number of reported anomalies at EIRS, whittled it down to machine anomalies, and listed them.

      Broward got hammered.

      Any State in the Union that doesn't have a Dem Sec. of State had better be ready for a fight this fall.

      "No Paper Trail Left Behind: the Theft of the 2004 Presidential Election"

      •  I thought that the 2000 recount... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        made it clear that Broward is a Dem stronghold.  Sad thing then was that there were large GOP demos outside the courthouse while the recount was going on inside w/o any Dem counter-demo.

        In order for a Dem to win statewide, he/she must pile up huge majorities in Broward and Palm Beach, and he must do well in Dade.

        It's more than a little curious that there are no stories of Goopers on the Gulf Coast having their machines showing Kerry when they were trying to vote for W.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 03:14:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  your diary has all machine anomolies in broward? (0+ / 0-)

        did you leave any out?

        I only read one which claimed 'voted bush - it recorded kerry' - is that correct?

        no snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible

        by biscobosco on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 06:22:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I witnessed this (0+ / 0-)

    in Florida as well.

    I and  few others complained about this at our local Democratic Party meeting after the election, but in fact the PRIDE of the higher level Democrats in the county resulted in them being unable to admit that their "Observers" didnt catch anything.

  •  Where is Kerry on the issue~~ He didn't take it (3+ / 0-)

    on then and he isn't taking it on now. The problems in Ohio were even worse, as long as the democratic leadership/candidates won't take the issue it won't get resolved.

    In any other country the candidate who lost illegally would have led his/her supporters into mass demonstrations, what did Kerry do  Conceed  We need progressive leaders not hack politicians.

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 11:50:55 AM PDT

  •  This should be good.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Elise, annefrank, Wbythebay

    Just got good news..Cleveland Ohio, plain dealer newspaper, just released latest poll for Bush...67 per cent of ohio thinks republicans and bush are crap..This should be an interesting race for touch tone machines in ohio..How do you steal the election when your man is losing in the polls.. Interesting..

  •  Some points to comments made above (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wbythebay, dirtfarmer, DonMahoney
    • The EIRS data set is available to anyone who wants to analyze it systematically. If you don't like someone choosing anecdotes selectively, and you think they're not representative, then look at it yourself, compile the number of pro-Bush or pro-Kerry anomalies, and report on it. Feel free to ignore the polling place queries in your analysis; don't pretend that their presence prevents analysis of the true anomalies. The incidents are categorized, for crying out loud.
    • In some areas in our society, we insist on proof, and in others, we rely on the absence of a reasonable doubt, or the absence of a conflict of interest. Pro-Republican conflicts of interest are rife in the last four or five elections: 1996, 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections: Look at Hagel's surprise win in 1996 on machines manufactured by ES&S, in which he still had a share. Or Diebold's CEO's promise to "deliver Ohio for Bush". Or the Ohio 2004 Secretary of State, or the Florida 2000 Secretary of State, each of whom were chairs of the Bush campaign. Where proof cannot be obtained, and especially where the stakes are high, we need to insist on a system that eliminates doubt and conflict of interest.
    • Pending legislation promotes a voter-verified paper ballot: H.R. 550. Read the text here, read about it at Verified Voting, push your representative to cosponsor it if s/he hasn't done so yet, push your senator to promote similar legislation in the Senate.

    Must read: MLKJ's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." It will surprise you.

    by AlanF on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:15:06 PM PDT

  •  I'm a poll worker (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    and I implore anyone interested in this issue to volunteer.  Our goal should be to have a democrat in each and every precinct.  Then we could be more confident of the vote.

  •  For the sake of accuracy (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zappini, Elise, Wbythebay, dirtfarmer

    This list of touchscreen anomalies is derived from the Election Incident Reporting System, a division of

    Actually, EIRS was a project developed by VV and supported by a coalition of groups, the Election Protection Coalition. The reports collected, as well as a description of the methodology used to collect them, are available to researchers. They were collected by trained hotline operators and fed into a specially designed system.

    EIRS was the only such system, and it was nonpartisan. The reports (not just the list cited in this diary) indicate a preponderance of pro-Bush anomalies. Much as Edison/Mitofsky invented a "reluctant Bush responder" hypothesis to dismiss the unprecedented discrepancies between exit polls and results, one can invent an "eager Kerry EIRS responder" hypothesis to explain away the preponderance of pro-Bush anomalies in the database. But one must then be willing to make predictions based on that hypothesis and submit them to verification. Edison/Mitofsky failed to explain why those predictions failed for the "reluctant Bush responder" exit polls, and I see the same lack of interest in defending the "eager Kerry EIRS responder" hypothesis made above.

    Must read: MLKJ's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." It will surprise you.

    by AlanF on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:31:28 PM PDT

  •  I was in FL for the election - 5 DIFFERENT VOTERS (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dnn, smartgo

    told me that when they voted for Kerry, they saw it register a vote for Bush. I was with Kossack Hekebolos who can attest to this. Not to mention all the people waiting 6 to 7 hours to vote in the sweltering sun with no shade. We had to constantly bring them water just so they wouldn't pass out. Some of them were very old and I can't believe they held out for so long. Of course this was in all the poorer err... Democratic areas.

    And in 2000, my friend's mother tried voting for Gore on a punch card machine in FL and the punch would not go through for Gore no matter how hard she tried. Coincidence? She ended up voting for Bush thinking there was no real difference between Bush and Gore (just like Nader said...)

    I think, therefore I am NOT A REPUBLICAN!!!

    by Reality Bites Back on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:35:04 PM PDT

  •  K, I have a question... (0+ / 0-)

    There's a front page item about congresspeoples suing Bush to enforce to constitution...

    Is there any kind of legal way to force an investigation of this kind of stuff(voting abnormalities)?  Does anyone know this?

    -9.13, -7.79 Remember, Remember, the Fifth of November.

    by L0kI on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:47:35 PM PDT

  •  Did it ever happen the other way? (0+ / 0-)

    Are there any recorded incidents of a Bush/Cheney vote being recorded for Kerry/Edwards?

    If not, then it smells a bit like fraud; if so, then maybe it's just crappy programming.

    Still, the founding fathers are rolling in their collective graves at the idea of a voting system where the underlying mechanics are not completely transparent and available for all to view.  

    The idea that a company can be allowed to sell and maintain voting machines without being FORCED to make public every bit of source code and design specification is absurd.

    •  the problem is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      would they report it if it did, considering i'm guessing this is a group that is either liberal or seen as liberal and 2) they won anyway, so it didn't matter.

      I think that makes it much more likely that kerry to bush flops would be reported than bush to kerry flops.

      Webpage; Current members: 85,098 (as of 12pm 4/18). Projected Date of 100,000th member registration: August 29, 2006

      by FleetAdmiralJ on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 04:07:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  BOYCOTT all E-Voting machines! (0+ / 0-)

    Insist on Paper ballot or absentee ballot.

    Make sure they send you the correct form
    (so they can't reject it later).

  •  Legal fraud by malicious interface design (6+ / 0-)

    I suspect I observed a very subtle "fraud" in Houston (Harris County) where people said they selected Kerry and got Bush on their vote.  I was volunteering at Harris County Dem HQ on election day and we received many calls where voter claimed they selected "Kerry" and almost didn't notice "Bush" was selected when they voted.  Nothing was proven and all reports were strictly hearsay, so I don't believe any action was taken.

    I remained curious about the number of complaints I'd heard so I looked carefully at our electronic voting machines the next time I voted.  I suspect there may have been a clever and legal (if unethical) way of manipulating the vote in Bush's favor.  Harris County uses eSlate (Hart InterCivic) tablets which use various navigation buttons rather than touch screens.  

    If you select an interactive area (voting "box") with the selection wheel, you must press a large "ENTER" key to input your choice and so-on throughout the ballot.  At the end of the process, you are shown a review screen that displays a summary of your choices.

    The problem comes when you need cast your final vote: you must press a big red "CAST BALLOT" button - not the "ENTER" button.  Unfortunately, if you accidentally press the "ENTER" button at this point, you will select the first item on your review screen - which happened to be "Bush" (and de-selected "Kerry").  If you didn't notice this and pressed the "CAST BALLOT" button, you would have voted for Bush even if the entire rest of your ballot was Democratic.  Even if you reviewed your entire vote and pressed one wrong button, your vote was not properly counted!

    I would think this was accidental and just an artifact of the system if I didn't know how much research goes into product interface design.  This includes detailed analysis of what happens when mistakes are made, etc. - "Human Factors" testing, I believe it's called.  If you deliberately design something so that the most likely mistake benefits one candidate over another AND they happen to be someone you support - that's suspicious.
    (BlackBox Voting indicates Hart Intercivic financiers are heavy contributors with strong ties to Bush.)

    Sorry for the over-long comment, but this observation is difficult to explain and has been bugging me for a while.  I haven't seen any discussion of this specific problem, so I thought I'd put it out there.

    • new job, Houston Chronicle, post (0+ / 0-)

      Greetings, Please pass your very valid story along to Charles Kuffner who is a great (as you probably know) Houston, Texas Political Blogger.

      He just announced today that he now also writes for the Houston Chronicle, one of three political blogs there.

      My story about elections and intentionally "bad for one party, good for another party" design issue, is that on the voter's registration form sent to homes, which we had to newly fill out, eventhough a constant voter at that point --right on top of the date of legal return (30 days) was a folded dot covering the date to seal for privacy while mailed....Idiots. I had a talk with someone in Paul Bettencourt's, Tax Assessor-Collector and Voter Registrar office about that and several things--returning evidence, Paper Ballots, to elections which they have not yet done. Idiots. So another story about how intentionally bad design can benefit one party--lower turnout benefits Republicans which would explain the covered up date. Anyway....idiots.

      many green, yellow, blue and now purple dogs are a majority.

      by Prove Our Democracy with Paper Ballots on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:15:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the anti-fraudster characters (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dnn, corvo, StrayCat, Wbythebay, dirtfarmer

    on the left are backtracking as fast as neocons on the right are from the New American Century - like Kristol on Colbert last night, (Rumsfeld? Oh he was just a guy who signed a few of our letters). Anti-fraudsters are similarly abandoning their idiotic stance in the face of cumulative proof of outright theft and disenfranchisement in 1996 through 2004 elections by Republicans through diebold and other means. These blog pundit anti fraudsters have been even worse than the establishment democrats on the issue, while the hopefuly soon to be indicted Rove has had them for lunch and laughed all the way to the White House and to State Houses all across the country in (s)election after (s)election. The anti fraudsters have been as stubbornly intransigent on their pet subject as the fundies are on creationism and are now generally silent, or subtly shifting positions as proof keeps rolling in.

    What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? unknown

    by moon in the house of moe on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 03:00:19 PM PDT

  •  No Machines Anywhere, Ever! (0+ / 0-)

    That has to be the rule.  Who cares if we know who the President is on Election Night?  The Networks, that's who.  They all want to be able to "call" the election (whether they are right or not, it doesn't matter, as long as they get a good ad out of it, right?).  We didn't use machines until the last few elections, anyway.  NO MACHINES EVER!  We can blog all day until the next election, but this is the ONLY fight that matters.  

  •  The problem with this (0+ / 0-)

    is that democrats are likely to report problems like this to this group because

    1. they're the ones who lost the election and
    1. the group itself is liberal.

    thus, even if the same thing happened where Bush votes got switched over to Kerry, its hardly as likely that we'd actually hear about it.

    Webpage; Current members: 85,098 (as of 12pm 4/18). Projected Date of 100,000th member registration: August 29, 2006

    by FleetAdmiralJ on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 04:06:13 PM PDT

  •  Are camcorders allowed in voting places? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    One video of this would be worth so much.....
  •  this will happen again in 2006 (2+ / 0-)

    and again in 2008. we reached the
    point of no return, unless stupid
    american people will wake up and
    will take the matter in own hands

    •  Think nationally, act locally (0+ / 0-)

      I'm thinking of getting up a local petition to put on the ballot here to demand paper ballots, hand counted, at the precincts, with representatives of at least 3 different parties present, and the results publicly posted at each precinct before being transmitted to any central location.

      The problem is that a ballot petition really has to be drawn up by an experienced attorney. Several local groups have had to rewrite their petitions because they weren't drawn up properly and were found to have legal flaws.

      Then you have to gather a lot of signatures, because some of them won't count. People might think they're registered to vote when they're not, or absentmindedly sign the same petition twice, say once in front of the library without bothering to read it, and then a few weeks later sign the same petition again because a different signature-gatherer has it in front of the supermarket.

      Even if the attorney volunteers and the signature-gatherers are all volunteers, the printing costs alone can be very expensive. And there are procedures to follow and filing deadlines to meet.

      So, I'm thinking about it, but I'm not sure I can really afford to do it. And it would have to be done EVERYWHERE in order to ensure that the 2008 election wasn't held on electronic voting machines.

      If I can vote on a paper ballot, put it into a sealed box, and then watch the poll workers open the box and count the votes that evening, I'm pretty sure my vote is counted the way I cast it. Otherwise, I'll never know for sure. The hell with faith-based elections.

      A lot of states have lotteries. People buy a ticket for a dollar in hopes of winning millions of dollars. Well, we use Diebold optical scanners here and it only costs a dollar for a tube of glue to fix the seal, after you've broken it and reprogrammed a single memory card that will be fed into the GEMS central tabulator to steal the entire election. The Registrar of Voters seems to think that nobody would spend a dollar for a GUARANTEE of millions of dollars in development contracts if their candidate wins. Well, millions of people buy lottery tickets when all they have is hope and the odds are terrible, so why wouldn't an unscrupulous person spend a dollar for a sure thing worth a lot more?

  •  The real problem is (0+ / 0-)

    now that I think about it, that any ballot initiative for honest elections, would have to voted on with the "invisible ballots" machines that we have now.

    Election reform -- vote for it?

  •  Anathema on Kos, but... (0+ / 0-)

    Sock-puppet, glad-hander isn't my President. Never was. Happy, joyous USA had a coup d' é tat, and we were too busy to notice, or unwilling to accept the possibility.

    Personally: I haven't paid any taxes (sans gasoline) to the Federal Government since.

    Steal my country? Bring it on!

    mali principi malus fini -8.88 -5.08

    by SecondComing on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 08:46:56 PM PDT

  •  unfuckingbelievable-very important diary-rec'd (0+ / 0-)
  •  UNBELIEVABLE!!!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dnn, OWTH

    My god, the posts on this diary make me feel ill.

    I cannot believe with the knowledge we have of what kind of people run this the current Republican party, what kind of people BushCo are, and many of you are posting in this diary that we don't have enough evidence, yada, yada....

    Jesus. What more do you really need?

    Of course it was stolen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the connection of Diebold to the Republican Party, the lack of morality of that same Republican Party, together with all the problems of electronic voting machines with no friggin' paper trail! This diary just lists the ones that were reported....

    My god, wake up people. Our entire democracy is at stake. This HAS to be addressed or this whole exercise called democracy is a sham.

    I feel so sick.. not just because I KNOW what happened in 2004, but that so many of you are still in denial about it.

    Just look at how they run the government. And you think the election wasn't rigged????

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis

    by Dunbar on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 06:28:48 AM PDT

  •  Video Tape Your Vote? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    No law says you can't take a little video camera with you into the voting booth, right? Put it on wide-angle, set time/date to show in the recording, hit record and do your voting. Narrate what you are doing in real time. Capture the results. Sure, most everyone (we would like to hope) would simply get a boring clip of video they could later erase.

    But wouldn't it be amazing (I almost said "wonderful," but no...) if dozens, hundreds, thousands of people, all over the country, suddendly had little clips of video of voting for A but showing B being tallied?  Stick that in your "Democrats are too stupid to vote correctly" pipe and smoke it, Florida. And don't forget to inhale. Screw you, Mr. Diebold. Screw you, Mr. Blackwell. Screw you, Mr. Bush.

    Hell, I'd be willing to give up my voting-in-private privilage if there was a pole worker with a camera to document my voting in real time.

    Crap, is that what's it's going to take?

    A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.  ~Mitch Ratcliffe

  •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    If we can have receipts from our atm bank deposits and withdrawals, why not with our ballots?  We should demand paper receipts/documentation.

    "A child miseducated is a child lost" John F. Kennedy

    by Pam from Calif on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 08:29:39 AM PDT

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